2006 Ladies Olympic Champion*

[DaveSato]

If the 15 year old Japanese girl isn't allowed to compete in the Olympics, will that put an Asterisk on the outcome of the Olympics? A Grand Prix Final champion not allowed to compete in the Olympics. If she's not eligible for the Olympics, they shouldn't allow her to skate in the Grand Prix. Hmmmmmm

[aaronts]

only if the person who won wasn't able to beat her if she was there.

IMO, Stinker, Sasha, Shizuka, Michelle, at least, can beat Mao when they're at their bests. if either one of them win, i won't see an * anywhere~

[handlem9z]

Just because Mao isn't eligible to compete per the age requirements at the Olympics, I see no reason why they need to put an Asterisk by the outcome. I know there is a lot of hoopla regarding her, but there is no guarantee if she was at the Olympics she would win or even medal. Irina still had two COP performances that outscored Mao. I think eveyone steps it up at the Olympics and brings their "A" Game. You never know what can happen on any given night and someone skates the performance of their life.

Just my prediction, but I think if Mao competed at the Olympics, she gets 4th or 5th place and misses the podium. Irina, Sasha, and Michelle beat her out for the podium.

[DaveSato]

Handle,
Of course there is no guarantee Mao will do well at the Olympics, but in the history of the Grand Prix, has the Grand Prix Champion ever been denied the "chance" to compete in the following Olympics? You gotta admit, the mere fact Mao will not be there will create that lingering doubt that no other previous Olympics has seen. Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't this the first time in Olympic history that the age rule is really effecting the competition.

I'm a huge Tara fan and would love to see Tara go down in history as the youngest Ladies Figure Skating Olympic Champion, but I also believe in amateur sports and want to see true amateurs have their chance at what was once an amateur event.

If they want to have a lower age limit, then they should have term limits or an upper age limit too.

A 9 year old boy qualified for a National Billiard Championship. He can compete with professional billard players. You don't see them trying to keep the talent out of the field. http://www.newsreview.info/article/20051202/SPORTS/51202005/-1/rss01

[Krista]

don't be so melodramatic lol. Whomever wins will deserve it. The general public probably hasn't even heard of Mao. Just the skating world. And rules are rules. No asterisks, because rules were there to support it.

[serendipity]

i don't see a need for * either. those who made it there follow usual protocols, GP nor not has no significance and isn't part of the usual protocol. those cannot be there because of, what, an 8 year rule just have to wait for the next one.

[DaveSato]

Paul Hamm won his gold medal and the rules backed him up, but we all know the Korean guy's scoring error and lack of response in a timely manner were the reason's Paul Hamm is the Gold Medalist. Is there an imaginary asterisk next to that?

[Krista]

no....rules are rules.

[berthesghost]

Thanks Dave for filling a much needed gap here at MKF. The way everyone has been completely ignoring the whole Mao issue, it's no wonder you felt the need to start a new thread. If it wasn't for this thread, there would be no other place in all the web to discuss this.

[Banannak]

Dave -

Do you think Mao should have an * next to her name as GPF champion? I mean, the current World silver medalist and current Olympic Gold and Bronze medalists weren't even competing in the GPF???

Anna

[missmarysgarden]

If the 15 year old Japanese girl isn't allowed to compete in the Olympics, will that put an Asterisk on the outcome of the Olympics? A Grand Prix Final champion not allowed to compete in the Olympics. If she's not eligible for the Olympics, they shouldn't allow her to skate in the Grand Prix. Hmmmmmm

No.

Dave, get over Tara. She's not a little girl anymore.

[NeverGivUp]

That is total nonsense to put an asterisk by someone's name just because Mao Asada will not be able to compete in Turino. They did not put an asterisk by Tara Lipinski's name. She was beaten by Michelle Kwan several times, and French girl that season in 1998.

[Kabooke]

Thanks Dave for filling a much needed gap here at MKF. The way everyone has been completely ignoring the whole Mao issue, it's no wonder you felt the need to start a new thread. If it wasn't for this thread, there would be no other place in all the web to discuss this.

Try and check spoilers,
people have been talking! ;)


Regardless of how well Mao has done it still doesn't change the fact
that the rules have been in play for how long(?) and now
people want to make an exception for Mao?

How is that fair?

Yu Na Kim of Korea could've been in Mao's shoes
but because of the age rule decided to stay another
year in the Juniors instead of competing on the senior
scene and possibly like Mao doing well but not being allowed
to compete.

You can argue with the rule if you don't like it, but
for it to be changed just for Mao at the last minute
does not seem right.

Other skaters over the years have not been able to step
up because of the rules, but no big fuss was made
of that. If you want to change the rules, fine.
But do it after the season is over.


Also, one could argue that Mao unlike her Japanese countrywomen
and the rest of the skaters has felt no pressure because unlike them
she was not competing for an Olympic berth. The Japanese field is
the toughest and all of the ladies outside of Mao have been put under
and felt that pressure. Who is to say Mao would've skated as well
if she knew the Olympics were on the line? Who's to say if she
were suddenly able to go the media buzz and pressure wouldn't crush her.

In seeing how awful Midori felt, even going as far to apologize
to the Japanese people for not being able to live up to it all and
endure the pressure to win gold is rather heart breaking IMO.


The ISU put the rules in place for a reason and now
if they want to chance them, go right ahead, but after
the season has come to it's conclusion.


Their will be no asterisk(*), just
some unecessary drama from some
folks in the skating world.

[me2shy]

The whole asterisk thing is ridiculous because there's always a "what if" situation for any result...

What if Tara was born 8 years later...
What if Mao was born 3 months earlier...
What if the scoring system didn't change...
What if MK never got injured...
What if, what if, what if...

If [name of skater here] won, then there would be *Mao wasn't there, SC could have won "if" she skated clean, MK would have won if she wasn't injured, and on and on and on...

There's always the possibility that the competition will be different and most likely the result also.

Bottom line, whoever goes to the olympics and wins in spite of the situation will the the olympic champion, with no asterisk.

[Sparks]

This thread has spoilers!!!

[lavender]

Should we put an asterisk by Tara who lost to the better Kwan because they say 9 times out of 10 Michelle would have won or Sarah who most think won on a fluke because the others faulter.


That is ridiculous and dave is just here to stir negative emotions because why on earth do we need another Mao thread to discuss the same thing. Mao is everywhere on this forum.

[Krista]

well dave has sufficiently stirred, as he always likes to do :lol well done Dave

[MarkyBoy36]

Even if Mao was eligible to compete at the Olympics...do you honestly think she'd skate her best? It'd be her first MAJOR world competition - she'd have no experience to back up on. Yes...some skaters don't let the mental things get to them...but come on...a 15 year old at the Olympics. There WOULD be a flaw in her perfection if she went.

[kwancierto de aranjuez]

Of course there is no guarantee Mao will do well at the Olympics, but in the history of the Grand Prix, has the Grand Prix Champion ever been denied the "chance" to compete in the following Olympics?

There's only been two Olympics where there's been a Grand Prix right?

[JazDFW]

i think that was what Peter Carruthers was saying. True, rules are rules but I think Mao should not have been permitted to skate at the grand prix final against elite skaters if she's not age eligible for the olympics. Doesn't make sense. The gal's ready, let her do her triple axels at the olympics. She's proven she can do them just fine. What's the difference between a couple of months?

[jniferg]

I don't feel the need for "what ifs" in any competition. There will always be a "what could have been". I hope with all my heart that Michelle wins the gold but the bottom line is that winners are picked from the competing field and hopefully the best on that day wins. No * needed!

[kwanluv]

Dave, your post had a major spoiler, so I moved your thread.

[shellyfan]

. . . I think eveyone steps it up at the Olympics and brings their "A" Game. You never know what can happen on any given night and someone skates the performance of their life. I haven't seen that to be generally true. True in 1998 -- Michelle, Tara and Lulu; but only true for Sarah in SLC and that was the FS only. If any top skater skates their "best" and the others don't -- she wins, but it could be the last one standing. I hope all skate their best and let the CoP chips fall where they may.
I think it is indisputable that going in if Asada were allowed to skate she would have to be considered a contender . . . nothing more, nothing less.

[1KwanFan]

What if The Olympics had stayed at every two years instead of 4? Then in 1996 Michelle would have probally been the Olympic Champion. If Michelle had won a title in 96, then maybe she wouldn't have had the extreme pressure of being a favorite, and been tentative in the long in '98. So the should there be an * on Tara's gold, because the rule changed?

[NeverGivUp]

Well, if DaveSato wants there to be an asterisk by the 2006 Olympic champions name, there should be one by Tara Lipinski's 1997 National win. She would have never won if Michelle did not fall. That's pretty much understood. The same was said with Tara's 1997 Worlds win. Michelle was still dealing with doubts. However, I think that DaveSato would not like there to be an asterisk by Tara's ONLY national and world win unlike Michelle's multiple wins.

Truly, the only reason that I think that DaveSato even brought up the asterisk ordeal is because he fears that Michelle just might win in 2006. It will be a way of him saying that she would not had won if...blah, blah, blah.

[Fozzie Bear]

LoL, berthesghost. :lol


A 9 year old boy qualified for a National Billiard Championship. He can compete with professional billard players. You don't see them trying to keep the talent out of the field.

That's a ridiculous comparison. Two totally different sports.

[Banannak]

Actually the asterisk idea is being discussed on other threads - this is not Dave stirring anything up (I don't think:) ) - he's just having a discussion of this idea that is circulating.

As for Tara and Michelle - it's not the same thing. They both had the opportunity to be there. Kimmie not being allowed to go to Worlds is a better example.

If they want to change the rules - then change the rules...but *after* this Olympics. You can't make a major rule change for one person, two months prior to the event...ridiculous.

Anna

[synnabun]

My opinion: rules are rules! They were set for whatever reason and should be adhered to, no exception. Just because Mao is a jumping bean doesn't mean that she's some glorious exception to the rule. If they want a rule change (and so far the only fuss has come from everyone but the Japanese Federation), then they should propose an amendment at the proper time, not in the middle of the season.

[Dragonlady]

To suggest that the ladies' OGM will be tainted if Mao is not there is ridiculous. Is the pairs' OGM tained because the best pair on the planet, Shen & Zhao, aren't there? Is the ice-dance OGM tainted if Belbin & Agosto aren't there? Is the 1998 men's medal tained because Elvis Stojko was injured? Every Olympic games there are top level skaters who either aren't there due to injury or who aren't at their peak form or who don't qualify and no one says the medals awarded are tainted as a result.

[bekalc]

First of all you can't compare billard because last time I checked billard doesn't require the physical exertion skating does. Skaters get injured and younger bodies can do the harder jumps but are also more prone to injuries. Skating may look pretty but its a dangerous sport. Last time I checked you don't hear of billard people damaging their hips!

First of all there is no and there should be no asterik on any of Tara's wins over Michelle. And well Tara has beaten Michelle a bit more than 2 times out of 10...Please don't get me wrong, there is no doubt in my mind that Michelle was a better skater overall than Tara. Tara was a bit immature presentation wise. A lot of the times Tara beat Michelle because Michelle made mistakes.

But the whole point of having a skating competition, is who can skate their best under pressure? Be it pressure of the Olympic games etc. Its the same with sports. So, your great at Bball or golf when your on your own. But when push comes to shove can you still shoot like you shoot in practice, or golf like you golf in practice.

One thing about Tara is that while she was a young skater, the girl was a great competitor. She had a very excellent mental capacity of skating her best when the pressure was on. Tara was a very consistent skater. And in the end when push came to shove. Tara brought her complete A game to the olympics and outskated Michelle when the pressure is on. Which is why Tara is Olympic champion. It's also why she was a world champion and a national champion. In fact, I could be wrong, but I think Tara was probably the most consistent skater in her day in that she made the least mistakes. I'm not saying that Tara didn't make mistakes in competitions but in the big competitions mistakes were rare by Tara.

Please don't get me wrong, Michelle is a great competitor herself, she is a 5 time world champion...But well in the competitions Tara won against Michelle, it was because Tara stood up to the pressure a bit more..


And the thing is that there are a lot of great practice skaters, who just can't do it in the competitions. Sasha Cohen I'm looking at you, although Cohen does do fairly well. A great example is Carolina Kostner. I love Kostner's skaters, but well Carolina is even more inconsistent than Sasha, in that she doesn't seem to skate well under pressure. It doesn't matter how good Carolina or Sasha is. If they cannot skate like that in the competitions, than they don't deserve to win. And I don't think there should be asterik's there..

I see the point about the sadness of one of the best skaters in the world not being in the Olympics. And I think its ridiculous that Mao can compete in the Senior Grand Prix but not the Olympics. But well Yu-Na might be one of the best skaters in the world too and its not like things like this haven't happened again.

One could make a similar argument that its ridiculous to have the silly national placement rules. In 98 becuase of Urmanov's withdraw at Worlds, Russia had only two men's placements for the Olympic team. Even though they argurably had 4 of the best skaters in the Worlds. Plushenko beat several top people including I think Kulik at some top competitions, but Russia couldn't send him to the Olympics because they had only three spots. I think Urmanov it was the same situation. But Plushenko had to stay behind and not skate in that competition. Given how Yagudin got sick and Todd skated so poorly, and the French guy Candeloro was soo far behind in the short. Who knows perhaps Plushenko (given his third place finish that year at worlds) could have won the bronze medal! Perhaps that competition should have an asterik too.

Right now Japan probalby has some of the best skaters in the world too. Without Mao, they have four/five world class skaters and only three spots.. All of these skaters even Yoshie are better than some of the other skaters who are going to be going in their place. But what can we do, rules are rules. But the sad thing is someone either Arakawa, Suguri, Nakano (I think her name is) or Ando all four who might even contend for a medal, is going to have to be left behind.

This probably happens every Olympics so well its never been an even playing field to begin with!

The point is that for whatever reason even if it's stupid. Mao is not eligible for the Olympics..

[jenaj]

What if the Winter Olympics had been held in 1996, as they would have been had the decision not been made to hold the Winter and Summer games two years apart?

[new_europe2006]

Paul Hamm won his gold medal and the rules backed him up, but we all know the Korean guy's scoring error and lack of response in a timely manner were the reason's Paul Hamm is the Gold Medalist. Is there an imaginary asterisk next to that?

The judges also forgot to take .2 off of the Korean guy's score on Parallel Bars for an illegal 4th hold. So Paul's gold is in no way tainted in the first place.

[skateworlds1]

Falling is a little differant than not being allowed to show up. Yes, there should be an asterisk next to whoever wins this year, and in most people's minds there probably will be. I think the sports writers will have a ball.

[kwanette]

To suggest that the ladies' OGM will be tainted if Mao is not there is ridiculous. Is the pairs' OGM tained because the best pair on the planet, Shen & Zhao, aren't there? Is the ice-dance OGM tainted if Belbin & Agosto aren't there? Is the 1998 men's medal tained because Elvis Stojko was injured? Every Olympic games there are top level skaters who either aren't there due to injury or who aren't at their peak form or who don't qualify and no one says the medals awarded are tainted as a result.


Excellent, DL.

[kwantumloop]

Handle,
Of course there is no guarantee Mao will do well at the Olympics, but in the history of the Grand Prix, has the Grand Prix Champion ever been denied the "chance" to compete in the following Olympics? You gotta admit, the mere fact Mao will not be there will create that lingering doubt that no other previous Olympics has seen. Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't this the first time in Olympic history that the age rule is really effecting the competition.

I'm a huge Tara fan and would love to see Tara go down in history as the youngest Ladies Figure Skating Olympic Champion, but I also believe in amateur sports and want to see true amateurs have their chance at what was once an amateur event.

If they want to have a lower age limit, then they should have term limits or an upper age limit too.

A 9 year old boy qualified for a National Billiard Championship. He can compete with professional billard players. You don't see them trying to keep the talent out of the field. http://www.newsreview.info/article/20051202/SPORTS/51202005/-1/rss01

The minimum age limit is there to protect the mental and physical health of competitors at a time when they are not so inclined to listen to their bodies. I would guess that the sport of billiards doesn't impose the same pressures on its competitors as elite figure skating. The grind of practicing jumps several hours a day takes a greater toll on the bodies of figure skaters, and the fact that figure skating is so high profile (compared to billiards) is sure to be mentally and emotionally taxing as well. Seasoned veterans are more likely to heed the warnings their bodies give them. I don't see how imposing an upper age limit or term limits would help address the real concerns.

[betty]

I can always get my Tara updates on this board. Now, it seems I can get all the Mao info. here too.

Regardless, I myself would not like to see an asterisk next to Tara's name. Good luck to Mao if she goes, but she's not Tara.

[BumbledBee]

Well, I understand why baseball players who "might have" used steroids deserve asterisks next to their names. Obviously steroids are illegal. However, age limits are completely acceptable. Therefore, the idea of an asterisk is ridiculous. I mean, the NBA now requires that all players need to attend a minimum amount of college before being drafted. Is that agist? No, they simply want players to mature before entering a difficult media hyped sport.

[iloveskating]

I don't know if the age rule has directly affected Olys before, but it has affected Worlds. Anything that affects Worlds, by extension, affects Olys.

Think about this. In 1999 NNN was US silver medalist. Should have gone to worlds, but couldn't, due to age. Who went in her place? Sarah Hughes. She also was too young, but the jr world medalist exception existed then, so she got to go. I said to hubby at the time (this is true) that this could give Sarah a real advantage over NNN leading up to the next Olys. Because she would have 2-3 years experience at Worlds before NNN would be age eligible. The rest is history. Yes, I know NNN was out due to injury & all kinds of other things, but who knows how things would have turned out if she had gone to worlds in 99 instead of Sarah.

[Arch]

I can always get my Tara updates on this board. Now, it seems I can get all the Mao info. here too.

:D


Good luck to Mao if she goes, but she's not Tara.

Yes, and I hope Mao doesn't end up being like her. :D

[JazDFW]

wow, iloveskating, thanks for pointing that out. I do remember that. Anyhow, for the same reasons i do think it's stupid Mao can't be eligible age-wise when there existed such exceptions. Back then i much preferred NNN's skating over Sarah's, and still do actually.
On a side note, i hope NNN wins national pairs one of these years to make up for her being sidelined from singles because of injury. That child is star material.

[lillyfly]

All this Mao Maoing...Yawn.

[probativev]

Why is Mao not being allowed to go such a big deal? As others have already pointed out, you can say the same about the pairs w/o S&Z, and ice dancing without B&A. In the past, many (lest I say US) men might not have gotten their bronze medals if Sasha Abt was allowed to get out of Russia. If if if....it's like people are dying to get rid of the old guards or see them destroyed or something.

Alexa

[fdevine]

What does the Grand Prix have to do with the Olympics? The series was added just a few years ago to make money. Maybe they should think about eliminating it, so the skaters can concentrate on the major events and skate a few fun shows. Maybe there'd be less injuries. Just grannie rambling.

grannie frances

[Dragonlady]

What does the Grand Prix have to do with the Olympics? The series was added just a few years ago to make money. Maybe they should think about eliminating it, so the skaters can concentrate on the major events and skate a few fun shows. Maybe there'd be less injuries. Just grannie rambling.

Five of the 6 events which comprise the Grand Prix have been in existence for years. I can remember Skate Canada events from the 60's and Skate America has also been around for a while. Cup of China is a recent addition, but the German GP was dropped from the series to make room for it. What is recent is tying these events into a series and adding the Grand Prix Final, which has only been around for about 10 years.

The skaters did at least 2 "tune-up" competitions in the early season prior to the GP series being highlighted, so in that regard, little has changed other than the profile of the events being skated.

Since I love competitive skating and have little to no interest in show skating, I would definitely not like to see these events eliminated, but if I never saw another Disney skating special wasting the talents of my favourite skaters, I could die a happy woman.

[lavender]

Dave came here to drop a little negative note and never came back.

[brett's girl]

no asterick needed. no Mao needed at games to make them exciting. lets all move on already.

[DaveSato]

Lav,
I rarely go into the spoilers. That's why I didn't realize the Mao issue was already a topic in Spoilers. I figured it was a good topic for Skate Chat. I thought the GPF was already broadcasted and is no longer a spoiler.

[Skatekwan6]

why is Mao a special case? The rules for the Olympics say you have to be 15 so you have to be 15. Maybe the crooked ISU should change their rules instead.

[bekalc]

The judges also forgot to take .2 off of the Korean guy's score on Parallel Bars for an illegal 4th hold. So Paul's gold is in no way tainted in the first place.


Actually the two issues are completely different. I read an article about the subject in International Gymnanst magazine. And they were quiet angry at Paul and the U.S media for bringing up the hold thing. What they said is that its subjective whether or not Yang's move was a hold. That it could go either way, and it depends on how the judges were scoring everyone that night for the same move. They pointed out that there were plenty of cases where Paul's routines perhaps deserved deductions that weren't given. For example, many say that Paul should have gotten a lower score on the vault than he received, and who knows if the same judges didn't score him to high on the parallel bars.

The issue with the Korean guy was start value. Gymnasts scores have certain values based on certain moves that are done. The start value is what makes the sport well a sport. Then deductions are minused from the start value. Thus, the Korean did a program that was worth one start value, and he wasn't given credit it for it. Start values are the only thing gymnasts are even allowed to protest.

Because if you go by, well this person should have had this deduction and this person should have had this deduction, then you have to score every event over again, and you might end up with many varying results. However, the start value is something that everyone can look at and say, yep that's a 10. I remember gymnast experts looked at Yang's routine and said how in the world could people not give him credit for that move. Are the judges idiots? That's why the head of the gymanstic committee and all that were upset by what happened. All of Paul's start values in contrast where correct.

The International Gymnast magazine did not say give the gold to Yang. But they did say that Paul Hamm was wrong to bring up the hold thing, that Paul being a gymnast knows quite well the difference between the two arguments.

[mzheng]

Thanks, bekalc. This is a very infomative read.

[3Flutz3Lip]

We also have to remember that the Olympics is about different nations coming together to compete. Not just only a few nations w/ their top skaters.

Just because Mao won GPF over IS doesn’t mean that it’s going to happen again if she goes. Or even if she might medal.

[berthesghost]

Five of the 6 events which comprise the Grand Prix have been in existence for years. I can remember Skate Canada events from the 60's and Skate America has also been around for a while. Cup of China is a recent addition, but the German GP was dropped from the series to make room for it. What is recent is tying these events into a series and adding the Grand Prix Final, which has only been around for about 10 years.

The skaters did at least 2 "tune-up" competitions in the early season prior to the GP series being highlighted, so in that regard, little has changed other than the profile of the events being skated.

Since I love competitive skating and have little to no interest in show skating, I would definitely not like to see these events eliminated, but if I never saw another Disney skating special wasting the talents of my favourite skaters, I could die a happy woman.I think you do a diservice thru simplification. If it were the old rules, Kwan and Eldridge could have done SA in 98 and been done with it. As it stands, doing one events commits you to no less than 3, the 3rd being very inconvienetly scheduled during peak season when one is concentrating on nats, worlds, Olys. And don't get me started on things like 2 LPS, or LPs and SP in the same day, etc.. The GPF is a sham, a lot of work for little glory. 10 years later and it's more like 4CC than Euros, i.e. not taken serious by the skating world. Even the Queen of the GPF dismisses it as "unimportant" when she doesn't win.

While I agree with you about Disney, IMHO the GPF has become just as bad. Back in the 90s I followed it religously, but I stopped watching years ago. It's an idea that didn't pan out, and it's run it's course IMHO.

Anywho, SA began in 79 as a prep-rally to Lake Placid in the newly constructed Oly arena. It restarted 2 years later and became the yearly event we now know as SA.

[Dragonlady]

I think you do a diservice thru simplification. If it were the old rules, Kwan and Eldridge could have done SA in 98 and been done with it. As it stands, doing one events commits you to no less than 3, the 3rd being very inconvienetly scheduled during peak season when one is concentrating on nats, worlds, Olys. And don't get me started on things like 2 LPS, or LPs and SP in the same day, etc..

Kwan and Eldrige could do one event and 1998 and been done with it.

In 2000, the ISU put a rule in place that an eligible skater had to compete in the GP series in order to skate in the Open Competitions. Otherwise, they would lose their eligibility status. It wasn't until 2001 (IIRC) that seeded skaters (skaters who finished in the top 6 at Worlds the previous year) were required to do both events and the final, if they qualified.

The requirement of 2 long programs and 1 SP was dropped after the 2002 GPF.

[berthesghost]

Kwan and Eldrige could do one event and 1998 and been done with it. Nope.
Both wanted to do SA 98 and no other GP events. Both were told no by the ISU, so neither did SA although they both wanted to. All of the article are too old to access but here are some of the headlines:
"To exhibit, or not -- that's Eldredge's question"
"Kwan sits out Skate America event"
"Kwan, Skate America find themselves caught in the middle"
"Kwan denied entry to Skate America"
"Kwan at center of skating controversy"

[bekalc]

I think the GP Series are important in someways and not in another ways. I gree that the Skaters don't consider it the most important thing ever. Sasha sounded almost relieved/happy that she didn't have to do the GPF this year! But then it is an Olympic season, but I wouldn't be suprised if it was reflected in her skating...

But I think that in many ways the ISU is perfectly within their rights to make former smaller competitions into a series, and then say that if you want to skate in their competitions you have to skate in all of them. They have the right to say that Kwan can't just skate in Skate of America and not in another competition. There aren't that many placements available in these competitions and they should go to skaters who want to skate in the final/ and all of them. I've got no issue with that. Obviously Skate America officials and others agreed to the change and they can invite whoever they want to the competition. It's not Kwan's competition. And, it doesn't seem like its that hard to get out of the GPF.

But I think honestly that the GP is great in many ways. It allows new skaters to introduce themselves to judges. It also lets people get their programs tested by judges. It seems like even Kwan wanted to do the GP this year, given her World results.

So I have no issue with the GP. I think it serves a very good purpose, a way for judges to see how skaters are skating international, for skaters to see how their programs are being judged and how their Competition is skating.

[mzheng]

But I think that in many ways the ISU is perfectly within their rights to make former smaller competitions into a series, and then say that if you want to skate in their competitions you have to skate in all of them. They have the right to say that Kwan can't just skate in Skate of America and not in another competition. There aren't that many placements available in these competitions and they should go to skaters who want to skate in the final/ and all of them. I've got no issue with that. Obviously Skate America officials and others agreed to the change and they can invite whoever they want to the competition. It's not Kwan's competition. And, it doesn't seem like its that hard to get out of the GPF.

.
Based on your logical, both GPs and Worlds are ISU events, while ISU has the right to say you either you skate in all of our events or not. But this could be only applied to skaters who come from the 6 host countries of GPs. What about the skaters come from non host countries if they want to compete at the worlds? And GP is by invitation only, INVITATION means you can accept or not, means you have choice.

[EigthAv]

"All this Mao Maoing...Yawn."

No one is forcing you to bore yourself.Ignore it.:)

Berthe,the USFSA bent over backwards creating special rules for Sir Toddie,Her Highness and Princess Bo Beck.ISU wouldn't do it,so USFSA and ABC made sure they could hold them and keep them "legal". New made for tv events were created.Then came Sasha...........and ,as Paul Harvey might say.....now you know the rest of the story.

Camp Squasha is going to come out of this whole thing smelling like a rose.Cohen and Nix have already gone on record praising Mighty Mao and almost daring her to compete in Italy.

I would love for Asada,Tanith Agosto,Toddie,Yags,Kurtsie Wurtsie,Peter Carruthers and Peggy Fleming to all compete in the Italian Olympics.In ladies.Todd,Kurt,Peter and Alexei could do a televised extreme make over show in preparation.Fleming would draw a gillion baby boomers. Tan and Ben could do the routine where the one skater rides the other skaters back and they pretend to be one very tall person.Tell the official that the USFSA's "3rd lady" got sick and Tanith Agosto's younger sister from Alabama is going to step in.

That would gas a brand new Olympic tv audience.I'm confident that Her Highness could beat "all that".

[EigthAv]

Dave,cool thread.I'm starting to enjoy the debate.A nice alternative to the same ole same ola "primetime tv" molarkey.

To answer your original question,as I understand it,the Japan Federation voted along with the majority of ISU nations on the minimum age rule.The USFSA must have been pretty much alone in opposing the rule.If so,Japan's case for Asada is weak.

ABC/ESPN is squirming.Since they don't have the Olympics,they aren't going to go out of their way to help boost the interest.If I could give them one tip? Broadcast the Ladies event from World Juniors right along with the broadcast of big Worlds.Run commercials during the bowl games and the Olympics proclaiming all about how "we are going to show you ALL of the best".Cheap move,but so what? Alls fair in war,romance and figure skating tv coverage.

[michelle2006]

You know what I'd reccommend ABC does- try to make a deal to broadcast Worlds at all...my gosh, I need to watch these worlds...it might be the last ones the Kween graces.

[shellyfan]

. . .If I could give [ABC/ESPN] one tip? Broadcast the Ladies event from World Juniors right along with the broadcast of big Worlds.. . . Better yet, have the OGMedalist and Sr World Champion skate against Mao and Yu-Na in a SuperSkate-off during the Jr World's Gala-- like the first little AFL big NFL Super Bowl

[bekalc]

Based on your logical, both GPs and Worlds are ISU events, while ISU has the right to say you either you skate in all of our events or not. But this could be only applied to skaters who come from the 6 host countries of GPs. What about the skaters come from non host countries if they want to compete at the worlds? And GP is by invitation only, INVITATION means you can accept or not, means you have choice.


If ISU had no jurisdiction over Skate America, than they wouldn't be able to tell Kwan that she couldn't skate in Skate America. It seems to me like the ISU probably agreed to make events like Skate America/Skate Canada/etc all into a great big tournament, and that's what all the federations decided... And as such they have perfect right to say that invitations are basically inviting you to compete in the tournament. You can choose to accept/or decline joining the tournament. But if you skate in one part of the tournament you must be willing to skate in the other parts of the tournament. Because of the whole seating thing as well, they cannot have skaters choosing where they join too. So under the gise that Skate America is part of a larger tournament than the ISU has every right to say how those competitions are run.

[mzheng]

If ISU had no jurisdiction over Skate America, than they wouldn't be able to tell Kwan that she couldn't skate in Skate America. It seems to me like the ISU probably agreed to make events like Skate America/Skate Canada/etc all into a great big tournament, and that's what all the federations decided... And as such they have perfect right to say that invitations are basically inviting you to compete in the tournament. You can choose to accept/or decline joining the tournament. But if you skate in one part of the tournament you must be willing to skate in the other parts of the tournament. Because of the whole seating thing as well, they cannot have skaters choosing where they join too. So under the guess that Skate America is part of a larger tournament than the ISU has every right to say how those competitions are run.
OK, we are talking different things. I thought you were talking about last ISU letter issue to Plushen that threaten bann skaters from worlds, if they were invited to GP but declined....I thought this was unfair to all skaters in different aspect.

[bekalc]

OK, we are talking different things. I thought you were talking about last ISU letter issue to Plushen that threaten bann skaters from worlds, if they were invited to GP but declined....I thought this was unfair to all skaters in different aspect.

No. I was talking about the whole Kwan wants to Skate in Skate America but no where else. (GP event wise). I was saying well if the ISU has made Skate America part of a tournament, than well they have a right to say you have to skate in the whole tournament of course or nothing..

As for the whole Plushenko must skate at the GOP. That strikes me as the ISU wanting to make money of GP events. And realizing they won't make money if the best skater in the world. (And He is period male or female IMO) doesn't skate. Let's make money of one of the biggest stars in the sport...

[cestlavie000000]

What I am going to say probably is not gonna fly but if the athletes in the Grand Prix were compensated from Big Corporations.....maybe they would want to pariticipate. I mean everything has to do with money and right now who/what is even backing the ISU? Who cares? I think they are a bunch of idiots who don't know there *** from a hole in the ground. There is literally hardly an interest in figure skating in the USA it has dwindled to a trickle. The validity of the Oly medals in the sport are hardly noteworthy and the sport continues to embarrass itself with secret judges and protocols. As I understand it there isn't even a grievance process with scoring. What gives? What judge gave what score? Who approved this garbage? Where is the accountability? Why is eveyone's ....I mean everyone's spin combination so ugly? Why do so many athletes keep repeating the same spin combination or a likeness of it in their long program? What is going on? Why is eveyone yanking their skate behind their head or to their ear and visibly counting as they move through their spiral sequence. Why are we looking at so many skaters groin area? I want to know?

The sport has been seriously damaged like so many other things that used to be good. So sad.

[lavender]

I doubt that money would make a difference to Michelle at this stage. I just don't think that money motivates her when it comes to skating.

[shellyfan]

I doubt that money would make a difference to Michelle at this stage. I just don't think that money motivates her when it comes to skating.
Totally agree -- If anything, the actual skating part of the Michelle Kwan business costs Michelle far more money than it makes her. The expense of skating, coaches, choreographers, trainers, doctors etc combined with what she could make if she made a more concerted effort to capitalize on her celebrity and image through commercials, endorsements, appearances yaada yaada.
She's not financially hurting by any means but she'll make more money if and when she quits competitive skating.
Its obvious that making huge amounts of money is very low on Michelle's list of priorities . . . that is just another reason we find her so precious!

[Arch]

I doubt that money would make a difference to Michelle at this stage. I just don't think that money motivates her when it comes to skating.

ITA. One can always see in her face how much she loves being on the ice and skating for an audience, and how appreciative she still is of everyone's love for her skating even at this stage...

[cestlavie000000]

I wasn't referring to Kwan at all but just in general. The sport needs some help. I don't feel there are any real dynamic female performers out there today. Sasha is a pretty skater but lacks power and her whole MO just seems so forced to me. Mao can do the moves but she does not commad you to watch her and I know she can do quads and triple axels but again I see no dynamic power/excitement ...pizzazzz. I wouldn't even notice Irina's skating if it wasn't forced upon you by the new judging system. I really wonder if she could even pass the senior moves test in the US? I might enjoy watching her try though...a spiral without yanking your back leg up with your hand...? impossible?

I have to say at least for me when I look back over the year's of skating I have lived through Ito, Harding, and Thomas made me watch them. I caught the end of Dorothy's era and she had that special quality as well. Outside of an in shape Michelle there is no female skater out there today that has generated my interest to that level of star power to advance the overall popularity of this sport. The sport needs and injection of umph. Oly champs come and go--now a days are largely forgotten...JMHO. In the end we will just be left with one Biellman spin and every 3 revolutions a change of edge....snooze and of course it will not match the rhythm of the music at all.

[Disciple of KWAN]

i think fumie is now an OGM contender!

she scored 194, isnt that the highest this season? or did irina get higher?

[KwansPrayerWarrior]

I'm a huge Tara fan and would love to see Tara go down in history as the youngest Ladies Figure Skating Olympic Champion, but I also believe in amateur sports and want to see true amateurs have their chance at what was once an amateur event.

I agree, it's not fair in the LEAST bit to let Tara have this title forever....just like it did take a long time for someone to come along and break Sonja Henie's record, why not let someone else have the opportunity to break Tara's record?

[Sheila426]

I agree with Dragon Lady. While Dave may or may not be trying to stir the pot, why should any Olympic champion have an asterisk next to his or her name because someone else wasn't able to compete? There are always people who are injured, disqualified, etc. That does not diminish the accomplishments of the winners.

Sure, fans may argue about what the outcome might have been had so-and-so been there or had so-and-so been in top form. That's fun and harmless. It is quite another thing for an official record to have an asterisk next to someone's name because some other potential competitor was not there. Mao Asada is lovely and talented, yet I can picture many other skaters beating her on any given day. If Mao were at the Olympics it does not automatically mean that she would be the champion or even on the podium. She's fun to watch, and I look forward to following her career, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

--Sheila

[aethera]

I agree with Dragon Lady. While Dave may or may not be trying to stir the pot, why should any Olympic champion have an asterisk next to his or her name because someone else wasn't able to compete? There are always people who are injured, disqualified, etc. That does not diminish the accomplishments of the winners.

I totally agree. If you're making the "asterisk" argument, you might as well include a bunch of other Japanese women as well. What about Yoshie Onda and Yukari Nakano? At nationals, they took fourth and fifth overall (ahead of Miki Ando) and Onda took second over Asada's two-triple-axel free skate. They've proven that they're perfectly competitive internationally and with the Japanese women that are going to the Olympics, and yet they won't be there. It's just as unfortunate for them as for Mao.

Also, while Mao's fantastic, and she's got a great future ahead of her, she's not exactly a shoe-in for the Olympic podium. Her spins, spirals and footwork are going to need more difficulty, and her other jumps are going to need more consistency before she becomes the unbeatable skater people seem to think she already is.

[archie4]

There is definitely no need for an * behind this years Olympic champion. There are so many "what if's" at every competition (what if she had been there, what if she wasn't injured, etc.), and there always will be. An * would be silly! Mao cannot compete because of an established rule. If she is really the next "big thing" in figure skating, I'm sure she'll have her time to shine in the future ;) !

[skateworlds1]

There is no need for a * but I would bet the bank there will be one.

[Louise1991]

Actually if any a*terisks are going to be handed out, I think one should go next to Tara's name because the "youngest ever" title is hers only because of the current rule. Remove the rule and in any given Olympic year, someone younger could come along and take the honors.

Other than that, I am OK with them changing the rule for the next Olympics. However, bending it in the Olympic year would be woefully unfair to all of the athletes who have been prohibited from participating at the Worlds since the rule was put into place. However, if they change the rule immediately after this Olympics, I would be OK with that.

[Dragonlady]

What I am going to say probably is not gonna fly but if the athletes in the Grand Prix were compensated from Big Corporations.....maybe they would want to pariticipate.

There is already prize money being paid for GP participation. It used to be $25,000 for 1st place in a single event and $50,000 for winning the GPF, as well as money for other placements, but It's been reduced and I'm not what the correct amount is now, although $40,000 for the GPF does come to mind.

Anyone else know what the GP prize scale is now?

[kwanette]

[

"Because of the whole seating thing as well, they cannot have skaters choosing where they join too."

I don't understand this statement.

[Terri]

I think the person meant seeding not seating, but I still don't understand the statement either.


[

"Because of the whole seating thing as well, they cannot have skaters choosing where they join too."

I don't understand this statement.

[Dragonlady]

Well if the person meant "seeding", then I think they were saying that because of the seeding, the skaters have no choice of events. That was always true, although at one time the skaters were asked what their preference would be for events and some attempt was made to accommodate those requests. Obviously if all 6 seeds in any discipline wanted to do the GP in Paris, at least 3 of them were going to be disappointed.

I think the seeding came about in an attempt to balance the field at the relative events. All of the host countries wanted as many of the World Champions and medalists as possible in their events in order to drive ticket sales and home country interest. What was happening all too often was that Skate Canada, which has always been a popular event with the skaters, would have a stellar field and the German GP event would have a bunch of up and coming skaters. Seeding guaranteed each host federation at least 2 of the top 6 skaters in the world in each discipline (barring injuries) and that no one event would have all of the top skaters, or conversely, none of them.

[bekalc]

I meant seeding. They also have to have seeding to make the tournament fair as well. While it always ends up being imbalanced anyways. It would be unfair for a skater to have to face Irina and Sasha at one GP event, thus makign it impossible to make the GP finals. But then another skater's biggest competition is let's say Miki Ando and then wins.. So seeding is the only way to make the tournament fair.

[cestlavie000000]

Thanks for the info about the money and the Grand Prix. It would be nice if some big dollars were won like in major tennis.

[Dragonlady]

Thanks for the info about the money and the Grand Prix. It would be nice if some big dollars were won like in major tennis.

It would be even nicer if that (synonym for) donkey, Speedy and the rest of his ISU cronies would give up their first class flights and their lobster buffets paid for by the ISU, and increase the prize money for the skaters. When the big $$$ TV contracts expired and were renewed for about 1/4 of the last contract, the prize money was cut, but you can bet your bibby Speedy's first class travel wasn't.

[Kwanatic]

I have never professed to be an expert on this (read some of my past posts and that will be quite obvious :) ) I have been here for awhile, and have not always agreed with DaveSato's posts, and have even been angered in the past, but understand that his comments are HIS, and his opinions. I do not see the need for an asterick, BUT What i heard from part of dave's post wasn't so much a cry for applause for Tara...What I heard is "Yeah, i love Tara, It would make my day if no one ever removed her from the book of worlds records as the youngest OGM, but i really think it only right that someone have the opportunity, even though deep down I will be saddened if it happens". That said...
I have gone to both extremes on the age rule, while i appreciate that they are to protect the health and well being of young skaters....do they really? I mean...it's not safe for them to skate at such and such an age...unless they medaled at worlds, etc. Ok...how can a 15 yr old be protected if they are allowed to compete at olympics because the medaled at jr. worlds? Still the same pressure and wear and tear on their bodies as it would have been had they not medalled at jr. worlds. So i'm not sure I buy that. I think an age limit is an age limit no matter what you achieve. So they either should fully enforce it, or not at all. They can't have an open age, because a 10 y\ear old would show up, having done a triple axel somewhere once, and have pressure and physical problems. I think they should have an age limit, but not with an "unless" exception.
I know that at the time of the 98 olympics, Tara herself said the age limit rule was ridiculous "once your ready, your ready" said she. Wonder if she will still feel that way when she's in a wheelchair at age 50? Ok, off my soap box. I've said many times how upset for her health i am that she was allowed to push herself against doctors orders at such a young age, an OGM wont relieve her pain and suffering. But anyway....
I also do not understand the idea of an asterick because, i think...as much as i love the grand prix series....they ARE two seperate things. That would be like saying, if you don't compete in the full grand prix...you are not eligible for the olympics. So Sasha and Michelle shouldn't go? Not by any stretch. It is the custom that the allowed # of representatives from each country send their best (usually) done by the placements of the nationals. Determined by how many placed in the prior years world's...not how they finish at the Grand Prix series.

This HAS to be the longest post i've ever written! :rollin

[iloveskating]

Bottom line, whoever goes to the olympics and wins in spite of the situation will the the olympic champion, with no asterisk.
ITA. Thank you!

[skateworlds1]

I think there will be a huge asterisk, if not officially on paper at least in the minds of every sports writer and many skating fans.

[mzheng]

Well, knowing the result of Japanese Nationals, not that many skating fans will pust asterisk on new OGM.

[Deetlebug]

Well, knowing the result of Japanese Nationals, not that many skating fans will pust asterisk on new OGM.

Bingo!

The ice is slippery for everyone and whoever wins is the winner. Period.

deetles