Yes to rule on the FLUTZED Lutz?

[Nathan]

Do you think the technical caller should start cracking down on the FLUTZED lutz's and start calling them as flips thereby not giving the skaters credit for them?
or
Do you think the judges should start being harder on the negative goe for the flutzes? BUt still ratifying them?

I think there needs to be a mix. I think it'd be awfully harsh for technical callers to completely eliminate a jump from a skaters program just for a bad edge, but at the same time a message needs to be sent to the skaters that you can't get away with just performing triple flips, and fooling us into thinking it's a lutz.

MAybe they could make a judgement based on the severity of the flutz.

Example:
Someone like Sasha Cohen, and Mao (I hate to say Mao) who flutz intentionally with no intention or effort to take off on the right edge, you don't ratify the jump. Call it a flip. And then they'll be forced to at least attempt to use the correct edge.

Someone like Michelle or Irina. Who never severely flutzes but occasionally lets their edge flip, you give them a negative GOE. It says "Yes you attempted to perform the jump correctly, but still flipped it a bit, so you get a negative GEO"

VS saying "No you never even TRIED to perform the jump correctly, and attempted to pass off a triple flip as a lutz, so you get no credit for that jump"

[Dave]

Poor Sasha if they do.

[aaronts]

if they are going to start enforcing the flutz "rule", then they need to give a couple of seasons to give everyone a chance to correct the problem. i mean, w the ISU, you never know. we'll get all the way to the Olys & the day before the LP, there's a memo that says "all flutzes will be considered flips & judged/scored accordingly". it would be fair unless there was enough time for a vast improvement to be made.

the only question is, where would the line be drawn? would Michelle & Irina w their "no flutz or true lutz" technique just get by or would they too have to make adjustments? there are some men who barely get by as well. i was watching a Sandhu program the other day & was surprised that at least in this one program, he had a noticeable flutz. the men tend to have an easier time holding that outside edge. IMO, the lutz is a prettier jump as a single or double element.

on a side note: Dick loves to mention how some skaters are able to complete their rotations in the air - as is the case w Johnny & his 3 toe. however, the thing he fails to mention is that having to perform 3 & 4 rotations a jump makes it so much harder to rotate in the air. one has to achieve great height to do that~

[uncchristine99]

I was under the impression that the flutz deduction was already happening--at least at 01 Worlds, wasn't that the reason for Michelle's 2nd place after the short? I know she doublefooted the lutz but if memory serves, she also flutzed it.

More recently with COP... well, I don't know how to calculate any of that so I don't know if they've been deducting but they should! I really miss and appreciate old school lutzes like Nancy Kerrigan's. Her lutz is textbook (when she lands it anyway; see 94 Olympic LP--it was perfection!). I was totally in Jenny Kirk's camp because she kind of had traces of Nancy in her lutz entrance and obviously in her spiral. I felt that Jenny was really trying to return to that old style and not go crazy on the technical side of things.

The earliest instance of flutzing I ever saw was Kristi Yamaguchi, specifically her Olympic LP. I wonder if that was a weird jump for her since she came over from pairs--maybe it's like her salchow--it just never really felt secure? So, she flutzes and it feels more comfortable? She vaults kind of quickly like Tara Lipinski whereas Nancy Kerrigan and even Tonya Harding had a long curved edge and not such a quick vault. I think the quick vault is what causes the flutz cuz you just throw your weight onto one foot and with the natural rotation of the lutz, you tend to go on the inside edge.

Michelle was the first skater I ever saw do the short entrance and well, it's not uncommon for skaters to do that now but I think that also contributes to the flutzing. If you look at Nicole Bobek's short entrance in her 98 Nationals LP... it's a natural shifting of weight to go on that inside edge.

Maybe with the doing away of figures and what not... young skaters paid less and less attention to edges and so forth. So the current skaters today WERE those young skaters right around or just after when the figures were gotten rid of.

Does this make any sense?

Regardless, I think with all the attention paid to edges in spirals and spins these days, there definitely SHOULD be as much, if not more, attention on the lutz/flutz hoopla. Distinguishing the lutz from the flip is about as COP as I can imagine--it needs to be a deduction so that skaters will pay more attention to it!

[darin]

The whole COP system is designed to add and substract points if an element is done clean or poorly. I say if it isn't done correctly substract away.

[3Flutz3Lip]

I don't think MK or IS ever badly flutz like SC and Mao (from what I have seen w/out slo mo). MK and IS edge might go to the neutral angle but I don't think it ever goes to the inside edge like SC and Mao. Theirs are so obvious that you don't even need slow mo because u can see the lean of the body just before takeoff. Their edge change all the way so it is like a flip.

I’m not sure if the caller should hold all of the power or not. Especially when they are not consistent already and continue to make mistakes w/out any kind of repurcussion or even appeals at all.

I like the idea of giving -GOE for now. But are the judges really doing that?
I haven't looked at protocols that closely so I don't know.

I would hate to see a scenerio where certain skaters are giving the benefit of the doubt and others are not.

But I do believe that they need to do something about it though.

[Brina]

It seems to me like it would be very difficult to determine the severity of the flutz. How could it be fair? There would be much controversy if results were based on "was it a flat (-GOE) or a flip (0 for repeated jump)?"

I don't think it would be plausible to penalize flutzes like this until calls could be re-done to make sure mistakes weren't made.

[Dragonlady]

A flutz is not a flip - the entry is different. The caller's obligation is to name the element and the judges determine the quality of the element. A flutz is a quality issue for the jump.

Sasha, Mao and other skaters who do flutz are receiving deductions under GoE. In Sasha's case, I don't think she's ever gotten +GoE for her lutz. It's something I check on with her when I'm reviewing the judging sheets.

[ceap]

There should absolutely be a rule and skaters should lose points for it. That has always bugged me. It also bugs me that the judges aren't consistent with penalizing skaters for the flutz. One day, they'll zing a skater, the next time they won't. Grrrr.

I don't think skaters should be given time to correct it either. They should have learned early in their career how to execute the jumps correctly. How is that fair to the skaters who now, perform the jumps correctly?

[ChiSkate]

A flutz is not a flip - the entry is different.

That's what I thought... the lutz should enter from a curve in an opposite direction of the rotation - at least that's what the traditional lutz is. Although a lot of skater who can do a true outside edge take off on a lutz can also enter the jump from a straight line and then press on the outside edge for take off.

So I guess I agree that the GOE should be the one affected if the skater flutz - I think that is the most fair and easier way to penalize skaters.

[Dragonlady]

So I guess I agree that the GOE should be the one affected if the skater flutz - I think that is the most fair and easier way to penalize skaters.

That is the amount that flutzers are routinely losing on GoE. If the jump is otherwise of exceptional quality - great spring, straight, tight air position, good landing on the correct edge with good run-out, and except for the take-off edge would have garnered +GoE, the skater will get the base mark, but the jump would have to have been of very high quality for that to happen.

[naganosilver98]

I've always thought that they needed to call flutzes flips. I think it's well overdue for them to start enforcing skaters to actually lutz instead of do flips, flips are easier jumps and too many skaters get away with getting their flips called lutz in this sport. I would love for them to start getting harsh about it. It irritates me every time a skater flutzes and gets credit for a lutz when it's technically a flip.

~Cassie

[naganosilver98]

A flutz is not a flip - the entry is different. The caller's obligation is to name the element and the judges determine the quality of the element. A flutz is a quality issue for the jump.

Sasha, Mao and other skaters who do flutz are receiving deductions under GoE. In Sasha's case, I don't think she's ever gotten +GoE for her lutz. It's something I check on with her when I'm reviewing the judging sheets.

I have to disagree with that, the flutz takes off from the same edge as a flip jump, therefore making it a flip. To me a true lutz is when a skater actually takes off from the correct edge, regardless of their entry. A flutz should be marked as a flip. If the judges can downgrade a triple jump to a double because it is under-rotated, then they can downgrade a lutz to a flip if the takeoff edge is incorrect.

~Cassie

[BumbledBee]

I'm also of the faction that believes that a flutz is in fact a flip. When I was taught to do a "lutz" it was pounded into my head to keep a true outside edge. If you switch to an inside edge, no matter the long curved entrance, you're simply doing a flip with a fancy bow on top.

[3Flutz3Lip]

I have to disagree with that, the flutz takes off from the same edge as a flip jump, therefore making it a flip. To me a true lutz is when a skater actually takes off from the correct edge, regardless of their entry. A flutz should be marked as a flip. If the judges can downgrade a triple jump to a double because it is under-rotated, then they can downgrade a lutz to a flip if the takeoff edge is incorrect.

~Cassie

I’m no expert, but from what I gather, the main difference between a Lutz and a Flip is the edge before takeoff. That’s what makes the Lutz more difficult than the Flip, not the entry.
Having said that I don't think it is a good idea to start callig Flutz as flips, that could open up to abuses by the callers.
We have already seen too many abuses from callers on levels, downgrades, and mistakes that go unchecked or not even acknowledged.

[aaronts]

ITA w the flutz = flip ideal. same w the lip = lutz.

it just isn't the same jump. the sole reason the jump is called a lutz is because of that edge take off. then again, if the powers that be aren't going to penalize it consistently, they shouldn't do it at all~

[3axel]

YES, they've got to start penalizing the flutz, because as long as they don't, then the ones who are being penalized are the skaters who perform their lutz correctly. Why bother to to it right if they're going to let the cheaters get away with it.