Where would Sarah Hughes be today had she kept training hard

[Nathan]

When Sarah won her OGM her career was just starting out. Her potential was just starting to get tapped into. That season she had just won her first senior international over two very top skaters, she had nearly defeated Michelle Kwan in a highly controversial judging decision at Skate America, and she had just won another National medal...

Then she got the quick ticket to FS success, and unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you see it) moved on to other dreams in life.

Where do you think she would be today in terms of wins/losses medals if she kept training hard the way she did before SLC?

when I thought Michelle was going to retire after winning Gold in SLC I was actually looking forward to the rivalry between Sarah and Sasha...one with the natural talent and gifts, the other with the hard work ethic and determination.

[attyfan]

It is hard to say. It might be my imagination, but Sarah seems to have grown a few inches taller, which, if true, might have affected her balance. Also, Sarah did compete for a year after Olys, and she lost every event she entered -- including some cheesefests. She said (at Nats) that she lost training time due to injury (which had caused her to drop out of SA); and, if this is true (and the story changed by Worlds to "she lost training time due to post-OGM activities"), she might not have done well in any event. I also don't think that Sarah is as inordinately flexible as Irina or Sasha -- so no Biellmanns (and no sky-high CoP scores)

[Dream Again]

Interesting question . . . the judges don't seem to care if 3/3 combinations are underrotated as long as they are landed (Irina and Sarah certainly haven't been penalized in the past) and the judges obviously don't deduct for flutzing as they should (Sarah and Sasha certainly have been forgiven on many an occasion) and Sarah did have a lovely layback; granted, not textbook like Angela Nikodinov's but pretty darn close nonetheless. Sarah also had strong edging to her skating and a great 2Axel. It's really hard to say if Sarah would be succeeding now because 1) we've never seen her skate under COP and because 2) now she is so out of shape. In today's current field of top international ladies, Carolina Kostner reminds me the most of Sarah Hughes. Both have/had good ice coverage, have/had 3/3 galore (though Kostner attempts more difficult 3/3s), and have/had an awkward looking quality about them by being so tall and lanky and not always demonstrating the best in posture or finesse. Sarah had such competitive fire and consistency in her skating that I believe she'd still be a top 10 skater if she were here today. Sarah claimed her Olympic victory BEFORE the international break-outs of many of today's top ladies - Shizuka, Sasha, Fumie, Miki, etc., so it's difficult to say how she'd rank in comparison to those skaters now that they have more experience and status to their resumes than at the time Sarah competed with them. I believe Sarah would still need mistakes from the top contenders (Michelle and Irina) in order to claim titles.

[millenniummagicz]

well, I did really admire Sarah's consistency in her jumps. IMO she was one of the top consistent competitor. I believe if she was able to keep her form, and train hard to get jumps rotated, she'll be on the top. Although Judges never truly liked her skating style (her presentation marks were always somewhat subpar, even when compared to Irina).

[kwanette]

Nate, Why do you say that Sarah's career was just starting out when she won the OGM? She competed at her first senior Nats at the age of 13...and had won Jr nats as a 12 year old. Between 99 and 02 she competed on the international circuit.She "earned" a 7th place, at her Worlds...then 5th, then 3rd..It's not as if she came out of nowhere...

As far as her future, too many "ifs" involved...body changes, loss of jumps, weight gain, etc. Even her Worlds 03 sp which many deemed "clean" was dinged pretty badly by the judges on her jumps.

[nymkfan51]

ITA kwanette. If my memory serves me right, one or two of her marks in the '03 SP were 4.9? Pretty low for the reigning OGM, after a program where there were "no mistakes." Obviously the judges weren't all that impressed.
Let's face it, she won the Olympics because everyone above her failed to skate cleanly. If the 3 above her had just skated well, Sarah would not have even made the podium. She should get credit for making the best of that opportunity, absolutely. But IMO she would not even be skating in the final group today.

[attyfan]

I thought Sarah fell in her '03 SP. Even if she didn't Dick Button mentioned that there were mistakes -- he spent that entire SP pointing out flutzes (not only Sarah's, but everyone else's)

[kwanette]

No, she didn't fall.at Worlds.in the sp.But Dick did point out mistakes on her jumps..His lovefest commentary at Nats gave way to the reality of of what really was.

[Dragonlady]

I don't think that Sarah was ever genetically disposed to be petite and tiny, like Sasha or Michelle. Her growth spurt after she won the OGM would have happened whether she kept on training or not. Look at how Oksana Bauil has struggled over the years to get her jumps back after she was no longer the the tiny little ballerina who won gold. Even when she has trained hard and being in top physical shape, Oksana has never come close to recovering the form she had as a pre-pubescent teen.

[Tejada1981]

Speaking as someone who watched Sarah at the rink a lot during her elite days, I can tell you that the myth of her growth spurt is just that: a myth. It's true that Sarah never had the petite body of a Kwan or Cohen and she had to work hard to keep the weight off. She gained so much weight after the 1999-00 season that I didn't think she'd even be a contender for the world team. But little by little she shed the weight until she showed up at Skate America in shape and landing 6 triples in her long. The same thing happened after she won her world bronze medal in 2001. That summer she gained more weight and a lot of people at the rink noticed and quietly commented on it when she wasn't around. Then little by little the weight came off until she was landing 6 triples again at Skate America and she hit her peak at the Olympics. After the 2002 season she gained weight all over again but but that time she never lost it all as she did in other seasons. Had Sarah chosen to remain a hard-working elite, I think her weight would have been fine if she wanted it to be. Sadly I have seen similar weight patterns with her sister Emily.

[Dragonlady]

It is much easier to fight your genetics when you are 13, 14, 15 years old. The more you mature, the more difficult it becomes. Everyone has a natural weight point which their body tries to attain. You can, through diet and exercise force your body to go under the natural weight point for a time, but there is a price to pay. It's not as easy as it just working hard and exercising, so no, I don't believe it would be possible for Sarah to attain and achieve an unnaturally slender appearance long-term.

Sarah is not a big woman by any means. In any other professional other than figure skater, she'd be considered fit and healthy, but her natural body shape does not lend itself well to triple jumps.

[iloveskating]

Many skaters gain weight over the summer when they aren't training as hard, then drop it as the season progresses. Even Michelle has talked about getting to her "fighting wieght" for Worlds. Some body types show weight gain more so than others. No reason to be hard on Sarah (or any skater) about weight.

[MKGrace]

I think Sarah would've been like a Sokolova in that she'd have weight/fitness ups-and-downs and then been up and down in the standings. With her youth, consistency and 3/3's, I think a trained Sarah would've had a very good shot at winning a World title during the past 4 years. I don't see her as one who would've dominated though.

[millenniummagicz]

ITA Mkgrace. i love Sarah's consistency, any day over Sasha's so called exquisite but fragile skating style.

[Tejada1981]

Don't I know it's easier to fight your natural weight as a teen! I have a very similar build to Sarah's. My parents are both large and sturdy. Still I was able to fight genetics for the sake of my sport until I retired at 23 and I didn't have nearly any of Sarah's drive or ambition. After I quit intensive training, I gained 16 pounds even when I was still jogging 3 times a week. I don't believe Sarah would have been able to maintain an elite figure skater's ideal body her whole life either but I don't think her figure would have prevented her from staying until 2006 if she wanted it. It's not like she won her Olympic medal when she was a pixie. People were always commenting on her non-traditional build ever since she was a junior.

[millenniummagicz]

its always easier to do almost anything at a younger age. your body is a lot more adapatable. it is easier to control/change the body shape. Most of Sarah's family members are not petite, and she was a pretty big girl in terms of the skating sport. Sure she gained weight after 2003, but her body just looks bigger, it didnt just seem like adipose tissues; her frame got bigger as well.

[Teacher1]

Where would she be? Hopefully with a new coach!

[gldnkwan]

It's funny. Sarah had a wacky skating career. She never won any major titles, yet boom she won the Olympics. Then the following year she bombed out, she didn't back up her gold medal. So, sadly, it will always be regarded as a fluke.
Tara won nationals and worlds, won Olympic gold and left her career on a high note. She did it right.
What I find about Sarah is that she didn't really stand out. sasha will always be known for her amazing flexiblity and beautiful moves on the ice. Michelle is well....Michelle. Sarah just seemed kind of awkward to me Her moves seemed as though did not come naturally.
Had she not left skating maybe she would have grown to be a better more graceful skater. It's just weird to me that she just up and left her career. It seemed as though she wasn't done yet.
This is just MHO, I don't mean to upset any Sarah fans out there.

[EigthAv]

I think for all of us there is a slightly different target our genetic hormones go after as concerns weight and height.If the weight and height are to your pleasing,you have it made.No big fight.If it isn't,you can spend years battling what luckier folks take for granted.I know if I ate like I would LOVE to eat,I'd be as big around as the famous Refridgerater Perry of the Super Bowl Champ/1985/86 Chicago Bears.I have to agree with Dragonlady.Big Hughes,as a "regualar woman" is imo,a good looking woman,but she doesn't have an ideal figure skating bod. I admire that she made it work and seemed to know that she better get all she wanted from the sport before nature took full charge.

[gldnkwan]

Oh yes Teacher 1. I am so glad we don't have to see Robin Wagner anymore. She was a little too much over the top.

[cestlavie000000]

I don't think it would have been physically possible for Sarah to continue to train at a high level. She would be injured and would be in Tara's position...just my 2 cents.

[Dragonlady]

It's funny. Sarah had a wacky skating career. She never won any major titles, yet boom she won the Olympics. Then the following year she bombed out, she didn't back up her gold medal. So, sadly, it will always be regarded as a fluke.

There are many people who would strongly disagree with this statement. Sarah's career was in no way "whacky". She started skating seniors at a very young age, finished 4th at her first nationals, went to Worlds and finished very respectable 7th. She finished 4th in her first GP event and then proceeded to medal in every GP she skated thereafter (GP Finals excepted).

At Worlds, Sarah moved up 2 placements every year prior to the Olympics finishing 3rd in 2003. She beat both Kwan and Slutskaya at Skate Canada that Fall, setting herself up well for the Olympics so her OGM, was hardly a fluke. Many people had predicted she would win and Time Magazine had Sarah on the Olympic issue cover.

Sarah's skating career was very traditional. She went to World's at an early age for experience. Worked her way up the rankings, and peaked at just the right moment. Those who didn't see it coming call it a "fluke". The rest of us call is a well-coached career.

[attyfan]

I don't think that Sarah had a wacky career. She had the skate of her life at Olys, but so did Tim G (or, if not the skate of his life, at least the best to that time) -- that Sarah got the gold and not the bronze is due to Michelle and Irina not skating their best. (I know there is debate over who should have been second in the FS. I think it is irrelevant. The fact remains that both Michelle and Irina were fully capable of winning the gold by outskating Sarah, clearly and decisively, the way Yags did to Tim, and in SLC, neither of them did so)

[BenHemric]

Some random thoughts regarding this topic:

In further support of Dragonlady's last post, if I remember correctly, Sarah's 7th place finish at her first World's was actually the highest placement ever for a skater her age (13? yrs. old) -- even higher than Peggy Flemming's and Tara Lapinski's placements at the same age.

- - - - - - -

(Since I only began following figure skating in 1997, I'm not sure of the following, so this is as much a question as a statement.)

It seems to me Sarah's career may seem "wackier" than it really was because of the way figure skating has recently changed. It seems to me that in the old days (when I wasn't following figure skating that closely) fewer skaters stayed on for more than one Olympics cycle. So it seems to me that in Sarah's competitive career she was competing against tougher fields of more established skaters than past Olympic gold medalists. (So, in other words, without these skaters, some of her silvers and bronzes would be gold.)

For instance, when she came in 5th at World's (aged 14?) in Nice in 2000, I believe all the skaters above her were veterans of the 1998 Olympics: 4th, Vanessa Gusmeroli?; 3rd, ?; 2nd, Kwan; 1st, Butyskyra.

On the other hand, for instance, I believe only one of the top figure skaters at the 1998 Olympics (Lu Chen) had actually skated successfully during the previous Olympic cycle.

So I think if Sarah's Olympic cycle had been more like past Olympic cycles, it is more likely that Sarah would also have had even more "traditional" results.

- - - - - - -

Also, I think if Sarah had won second place at Nationals instead of a somewhat shaky third place (by not, for instance, uncharacteristically missing her triple-triple), her Olympic win would have been seen in a slightly different light.

Remember, as Dragonlady points out, Sarah did win over both Michele and Irene at Skate Canada only a few months earlier. (I believe that between the 1998 and 2002 Olympics, Sarah was the only skater to ever win over both Michelle and Irene in the same competition.)

Plus, in the eyes of many, even Sarah's pre-improved long program at the Grand Prix Final deserved to be placed above Irene's very sloppy Tosca.

So it seems to me that without her shaky third place finish in the long program at Nationals, Sarah would have been seen as even more of a contender than she already was.

[berthesghost]

Carol Heiss went to worlds at 13 and placed 4th. 4th at 13 when figures counted 60% and no lady had even landed a triple yet is amazing.

Peggy didn't even skate at senior nats until she was 15. She did win on her 1st try and was 6th at that year's Olys and 7th at worlds.

I have no idea where this myth "skaters usually only go to one Olys" came from, but it's pure bunk. THE only lady at SLC that could be considered a "hangabout" was Maria. The vast majority of OGM ladies are 19 to 21 years old, right about the age of all the skaters you call "veterans".

[MKGrace]

Sarah certainly wasn't a fluke by any means. Her win at Skate Canada and her performance at Skate America (which I felt was the best at that event) showed that she was challenging and beating the big guns before the Olympics. Sarah was demonstrating a great work ethic year after year as she climbed up the rankings. I do think it's a shame she quit competing after the Olympics and lost her focus. When she won in SLC I figured it was a given that she would stick around and try to complete her collection with a National and World title. With the Olympic gold under her belt already I thought that would relieve a lot of pressure, but it seems that skating with an Olympic gold under your belt actually adds tons of pressure every time you step on the ice.

[Dragonlady]

Plus, in the eyes of many, even Sarah's pre-improved long program at the Grand Prix Final deserved to be placed above Irene's very sloppy Tosca.

A group of internet fans met for breakfast the morning after the freeskate finals in Kitchener and the two hot topics of conversation were (a) should B&K have won the Dance; and (b) should Sarah have beaten Irina in the Ladies final. I thought Sarah should have been second on the basis of having completed 7 triples and having the most detailed choreography of the three. Even before the improvements to the program, you could see that Sarah was oh so close to Michelle and Irina. She lacked only the speed and ease of movement to be contending for gold, both of which she had by the time she got to Salt Lake City.

[skatingfan5]

A group of internet fans met for breakfast the morning after the freeskate finals in Kitchener and the two hot topics of conversation were (a) should B&K have won the Dance; and (b) should Sarah have beaten Irina in the Ladies final. I thought Sarah should have been second on the basis of having completed 7 triples and having the most detailed choreography of the three. Did all those at the breakfast gathering really think that Irina deserved to win the final free skate? If so, I guess there was a whole lot "lost in translation" on the TV broadcast.

[BenHemric]

Given Heiss's achievement (which does indeed seem to be amazing given the circumstances), thirteen-year-old Sarah's placement at World's is obviously not quite the "record" that some in the media may have made it out to be. (Or, as a relative newcomer, maybe I just misunderstood or misremembered what they were saying. My recollection, however, is that people in the media were comparing Sarah's precocious World's with those of Peggy's, Tara's and Michelle's and that Carol's name was not, for one reason or another, part of the mix.)

But, in any case, it still seems to me that 13-year-old Sarah's 7th place finish is even more than just "respectable" (and even more so if Peggy was indeed two years older when she came in 7th in her first World's) and that this further supports Dragonlady's original point, which seemed to me to be that Sarah was actually more of an overlooked (by some skating fans) "phenom" than a "fluke."

- - - - -

While it may be true that the top ladies at the Salt Lake City Olympics were not outside the standard age range for top skaters, except for Sasha they were all pretty seasoned veterans nevertheless (and thus more formidable as opponents in the competitions leading up to the Olympics). Irene had already placed 5th at the 1998 Olympics and medaled at World's (both before [?] and since the 1998 Olympics); Michelle had placed 2nd at the 1998 Olympics, and been World Champion a number of times [one of the times being even before the 1998 Olympics]; Maria had placed 4th at the 1998 Olympics and been World Champion once. (Plus I think there may have been even a few others who had also appeared in the 1998 Olympics, and in the various World's between the two Olympics: e.g., Vanessa Gusmeroli, Laetitia Hubert, and that skater from the Ukraine who has recently revived her career [her name escapes me at the moment].)

Since I wasn't following figure skating before 1997, I don't know if previous Olympic competitions had as many "holdovers," but the impression one gets from casual reading is that they didn't. (One reason that's given for this phenomenon, if it is indeed true, is that in the old "amateur" days it was too tough financially for many top skaters to stick it out through more than one Olympic cycle.)

- - - - - - -

But even more pertinent to a discussion of how "traditional" Sarah's career has been for an Olympic gold medalist are the rosters of the various competitions between the Olympics. So it would be interesting to see if in past years these competitions had as many former Olympians, etc. as the ones that Sarah competed in.

Again I'm not really all that familiar with skating before 1997, but from all the talk (for instance, by Peggy and Dick and many others) one gets the impression that the skating world usually experienced a big loss of seasoned veterans ('emptied out" as skaters turned pro) just after the Olympics and that each new Olympic cycle consisted mostly of a new crop of up-and-comers.

But of course, it would be interesting to actually look at the record to see if this is indeed true or, rather, just a misperception or myth.

[Dragonlady]

Did all those at the breakfast gathering really think that Irina deserved to win the final free skate? If so, I guess there was a whole lot "lost in translation" on the TV broadcast.

IIRC the only person at breakfast who would have given the nod to Irina was Louis, based on her speed and the quality of the jumps she completed.

[skatingfan5]

IIRC the only person at breakfast who would have given the nod to Irina was Louis, based on her speed and the quality of the jumps she completed. Did the others think that Michelle should have been first or Sarah? I guess I wasn't clear in my initial question.

[Dragonlady]

There was absolutely no discussion of anyone being first other than Michelle. I believe she landed 6 triples and skated a strong program. It was a controlled performance and definitely the best on the night.

[skatingfan5]

Dragonlady: Thanks for clarifying -- yes, Michelle did land 6 triples (but fell on the final 3T, which was her 7th triple attempted). Viewing it on TV , it certainly seemed as if she had the winning free skate that evening, but evidently the majority of judges on the panel (4 of 7) believed otherwise. :\

[Dragonlady]

Michelle won the second freeskate, but was too far back to win the competition overall. Irina was seriously overmarked in the second program.

Irina clearly won the SP and the first freeskate, there was no question. She skated with so much power and authority that I was shocked. This was the first time I had seen Irina live and I wondered how she had ever lost a competition, watching the first two events. Watching her final freeskate I thought "That's how". It was slow and sloppy and without her power and command, there wasn't much else.

[skatingfan5]

Michelle won the second freeskate, but was too far back to win the competition overall. Irina was seriously overmarked in the second program. You were there, but Michelle did NOT win the second freeskate -- she lost to Irina in a 3/4 split panel decision. She had a bad SP (3rd place) and was 2nd to Irina in the first free skate, but and should have won the second freeskate by most people's assessment, even if it wouldn't have made a difference in the final standings (she would have had a factored placement of 3.4, to Irina's 3.0) UNLESS Irina was 3rd in the final free skate (which would have given the win to Kwan, with 3.4 to 4.0). Here it is in the ISU's own words (http://ww2.isu.org/news/gpfinal3.html):
Skating last, Slutskaya was fast and powerful on the ice, but a few mistakes marred her "Tosca" routine. The four-time European Champion double her second Lutz and stepped out of the triple Flip, but she did land four triples, including a triple Lutz-double loop and a triple Salchow- double loop combination. The Muscovite also produced excellent spins, including her trademark double Biellmann. "I was so tired, I didn't feel well", she said. "I'm happy to have won, but my skating has to be better." Slutskaya received four first and three third place ordinals to stay ahead of her competitors.

Kwan made amends after yesterday's performance. Skating to "Sheherazade", the Californian pulled off six clean triples, but she unexpectedly fell on her final triple toeloop, that she had thrown in as an extra at the last minute. Kwan collected three first place ordinals and four seconds. "Son of a gun! That's all I really wanted to do - that toeloop!" she exclaimed as she came off the ice. "I decided to add it at the end, obviously a mistake. I felt settled out there tonight, not having felt like that in a long time."

[Dragonlady]

Oops! Well, it was nearly 4 years ago, and I didn't check the results before I posted. As I said before, the discussion at breakfast was whether or not Irina should have been 3rd. We all agree that Michelle was first.

[amyp3]

She finished 4th in her first GP event and then proceeded to medal in every GP she skated thereafter (GP Finals excepted).
Did Sarah compete at three GPFs? Because she was on the podium at two of them.

[quadstar]

In most sports you can identify some competitors that will win by performing their best. Others, have to perform their best AND have the more talanted competitors faulter. Sarah worked hard, skated the skate of her life, and deserved that gold medal, but she needed help from some others to do it.

To me, true greatness in sport, is the ability to maintain a superior level of performance over a long period of time. Michelle defines greatness, at least to me.

[millenniummagicz]

i also thought Sarah at least bronzed at one GPF over Maria.

ITA Dragonlady, Sarah was steadily improving, each year at Worlds, and other competitions. IMO her improvement was overshadowed by Sasha's hype. Her win at SLC though, I do consider as extremely Lucky, a fluke? judging from her US Nat performance, yes, but not her overall consistency in skating at that season. She cheated triple triple was very consistency, at SA, SC, and GPF.

The reason she didnt back her gold was that she wasnt training. I dont think Sarah wanted to fight more. Whats the motivation? She won the big one, thats the biggest accomplishment that an amateur skater can dream (well, most of them), and its time to move on. I always felt that "someone" (although i dont know who) was pushing Sarah to go the US Nat and Worlds. Sarah would be perfectly content hanging her skats, starting in Yale and have a great campus life. (YALE rules! yeah!)