Should Shizuka be a little upset?

[Nathan]

I think she should be a little...

Imagine if 1998, Lori Nichol decided that during the summer she'd also choreograph a program for Tara Lipinksi in addition to Michelles. Can you imagine the uproar on the internet boards, and fan sites from people calling for Lori's head on a stick?

As thrilled as I am. (and I can't wait to see what happens with the choreography) of the news that Tat is choreographing for the Kween, I can't help but think about how Shizuka must feel in all of this.

This is a competetive sport, and how can you trust a coach that's helping one of your rivals win?

I'm just curious how the Japanese federation feels about this.

Am I framing this in the wrong scenario? Is there another way to view this that doesn't make Tatianna appear like she's cheating on Shizuka?



*edited the thread title a tad*

[Amber11]

TT is getting crazy paid to work with MK. IF Shizuka don't like it, she can high-tail her but back to japan(LOL). She was also coached by her federation ( or someone else) too last year and they announced that shizuka would only be training with TT part-time, but the other time she would be trained by someone in Japan ( hope I got all that right). Now, if Shizuka did not sign an exclusive contact with TT with specific wording stating she would violate their contact if she worked with her chief rivals, then Shizuka has nothing to say. All she can do is try and skate better than MK, which is pretty darned hard to do most of the time. Now Shizuka can also come up with something more creative than MK, for example, when MK and SC had both choregraphy by Nikoli MK whipped her but with the feeling begins. That's how you do it. Come out blazing with your program and show everyone else why your choregraphy is the best. Good luck Shizuka (also known as the ice queen) because she does not emote to the audience all that well and only has that ina bauer to bring the house down on ocassion. May the best TT program bring down the house and may the best skater win. Can't wait. Buying my popcorn now:)

[MKGrace]

Good luck Shizuka (also known as the ice queen) because she does not emote to the audience all that well and only has that ina bauer to bring the house down on ocassion.Agree. Shizuka's skating does nothing for me. She's pretty consistent on jumps but I think her jumping technique is unattractive. Shizuka may very well be ticked and I can see why she would be, but skating is a business after all. More likely Shizuka's just intimidated. She knows Michelle can take it to the bank with TT's choreography.

[THIZfiyaVIETgrl]

Why did this thread turn into criticism of Shiz's skating?

Anyway, Shizuka came to TT when TT had a lot of skaters she choreographed for, including Julia Sebestyen. So Shiz and the Japanese Fed knew what she was getting into when they sent her to TT.

[attyfan]

No. TT has coached competing ice dance teams in the past; anyone who wants her exclusive services should be on notice that they need a contract specifying it.It appears to me that Russian coaches do not believe it is a breach of duty to coach (or choreograph) for competitors, since so many of them do that: Morosov has choreographed for competing skaters; Moskvina has coached competing pairs teams.

[honey827]

THIZfiyaVIETgrl I agree with you this thread is not about Shizuka's skating. Getting back on topic. TT responded to this question in a recent interview by saying she works hard for everyone who asks for her help. If Shizuka had a problem with TT working with her competition she would not have used her again this season after she worked with Julia S. last season. Or as Attyfan said she would have specified something in a contract.

[Amber11]

Sorry if I sounded critical of Shizuka. I should not have pointed out that she was also labeled the Ice queen. Sorry again. However, if she wanted TT exclusively, she should have a contract to say so. Sorry again, sorry again did not mean to criticize Shizuka.

[Ice So]

From the sport-express interview with Elena Vaitsekhovskaya, this is what Tatiana has to say about the possibility of her skaters being jealous of each other:

You choreograph programs for Arakawa and Kwan, for Goebel and Weir. Morozov works with both Brian Joubert and Evgeni Plushenko. Aren't the skaters jealous?

For everyone who asks for my help I do maximum I'm capable of. I think none of the athletes will say that I worked better with one and worse with another. At the same time, I cannot devote my life to just one skater. They are not Lyosha Yagudin. p074.ezboard.com/falexeid...7289.topic (http://p074.ezboard.com/falexeidiscussiongroupdiscussionsonalexei.showMess age?topicID=7289.topic)

[Krista]

Shizuka seems to be a very focused person, just watching her, imo. Like others have said, Tarasova has choreographed for many people. I seriously doubt that Shizuka would be petty to get upset about something like that.

Look at how many people Morosov choreographs for.

[Nitts]

I don't think Shizuka would be upset with TT. I think Shizuka knows exactly what she is doing and where she stands with TT. These ladies are all smart competitors, and will do what it takes to win.

[mzheng]

Comb TT/SA is different comb of TT/SC. Had SC stays with TT, I doubt TT would agree to choreograph for Kwan. And team Kwan might not ask at first place.

This is not to say SA is inferrio to SC. (IMO, SA is a far better skater than SC; and I consider she is better than IS in many aspects). Just that there are too many tangible things going around in Russian FS circles.

[Fozzie Bear]

ITA, mzheng. (...I think SA is better than SC and IS in many ways too...) Another thing to consider is that Shizuka has never had a long one-on-one rivalry with Michelle.

[iloveskating]

anyone who wants her exclusive services should be on notice that they need a contract specifying itITA. It all boils down to this. And you can be sure they will pay for exclusivisity, especially for someone like TT. She prob won't even do it.

[TarotX]

I guess TT is the one who got mad at Morosov when he choreographed for Michelle. I do think that was just another straw in hat between those two though. If she can get over her pettiness anyone can. Anyway no one can turn down the Kween and everybody now knows it.

Skating is different now. If Morosov can choreograph Sasha and Michelle. TT can Coach/choreograph Shizuka and choreograph MIchelle.

[Nathan]

But putting aside the contractual issues, and looking at it from a moral aspect.

How would you feel if in your Olympic year your coach went to choreograph a program for someone who you know will be a main contender for winning Olympic gold? How could you feel had your coaches full support if you were just "another job" for them, and they could lend their services out to anyone.

Isn't a need to feel that you are your coaches "prized student" part of what helps build your confidence and make you feel like a champion?

Look at it this way? How would we all feel if Rafael Arturnian went to Russia to help Irina with her jump technique? Or Sasha with her spins? What would our response be? I don't think it would be "Well Michelle never had a exclusivity agreement with him so he can do whatever he wants."

[mr pru]

Nathaniel-

Couldn't you have used another word in your title like "upset", "mad", "perturbed", or something else?

There are children who read this board, and we adults need to set a good example.

You, not being a parent, probably don't give this much credence, but could you try?

[Shiprock]

I would say a coach would probably feel morally obligated to his skater if the skater is very young and still growing as a skater and if the coach has been bringing along the skater from a very young age (for example Frank Carroll and Michelle up to Nagano 1998 Olympics). In this case Shizuka has already been coach by her own federation and she is a seasoned skater just like Sasha and Michelle. They are self assured women now and confident enough not to let using the same choreographer prevent:FL them from performing their best in the Olympic year.

[shellyfan]

Just to point out Shizuka has many fans who love her skating and her presentation! Her presence on the ice has shown extraordinary improvement over the years while she continues to stretch the limit with technical skills. Michelle has her spiral, Shizuka her Ina Bauer. Shizuka felt a lot of pressure from the JPN Federation last year because of her 2004 world title. She skated all the GP's, the GPF while injured and even threatened with not going to Moscow Worlds unless she skated the Japanese nationals after her GP season. She skated the SP but couldn't continue into the competition . . .but was sent to World's.
I am very anti-Federation, whether USFSA, JPN, Russia wherever because in many instances they are just fat cats trying for riches and power on the backs, for the most part, of young girls they are willing to use and abuse and discard when the hopes of money and power are no longer there.
JPN Federation is more authoritarian than the USFSA and the skaters, even at Shizuka's level have to do what they are told and use the coaches the federation assigns them. Would that the WSF could have overcome. . . .
After the Jpn Federation snatched Shizuka away from Callaghan weeks before Worlds and tried to get him to take (either Yoshe or Miki, I forget who) he said he'd not coach any more skaters for the Jpn Federation.

As far as coaches and choreographers working with competing skaters, I question the ethics of it but when has ethics ever trumped greed?
Seems like TT, Lori Nichol, Leanne Miller and Morosov choreograph like 90% of the skaters. Who do they root for?
Unlike Michelle, Shizuka does what the Federation tells her to do and her feelings don't count much.

I am sure she is very accepting of the situation with TT and is fine with her coaching part time and Shizuka using Japanese coaches the rest of the time. Hopefully she'll stay healthy and continue to improve from her 2004 World title year in both technical and presentation and make a serious challenge for the Olympic podium.

[iloveskating]

But putting aside the contractual issues, and looking at it from a moral aspect.... How would we all feel if Rafael Arturnian went to Russia to help Irina with her jump technique? Or Sasha with her spins? What would our response be? I don't think it would be "Well Michelle never had a exclusivity agreement with him so he can do whatever he wants." I don't see where you can make a "moral" issue out of it. There is absolutely nothing illegal about it. The contract is the basis of the relationship. Yes, an emotional bond often develops between the parties. But that does not change the basic nature of the agreement.

To me, it is just as "immoral" for one skater to expect their coach or choreo to pass up work (income) and not pay for the privilege of exclusivisity. Yes, some people here would be pissed, but not me.

It's sort of like saying that because you post at MKF you cannot read or post at any other boards or like any other skater. Or like saying that a parent who has more than one child is neglecting the first child if they have a second one. The coach-chore-skater relationship is not like high school dating.

[Nathan]

It's sort of like saying that because you post at MKF you cannot read or post at any other boards or like any other skater. Or like saying that a parent who has more than one child is neglecting the first child if they have a second one. The coach-chore-skater relationship is not like high school dating.

but if that same parent were to go next door to share her love and time with someone else's child would her child be a little upset?

[Sparks]

That is an unfair comparison...and way too dramatic. iloveskating, ITA with your last post. :angel
The question was: SHOULD Shizuka...
IMO, shoulds don't even enter into this. :rolleyes
Frankie is coaching two ladies who are trying to make the Olympic team...TT has coached and choreographed for many competing teams...
Why would you think Shizuka could be so petty? This is buisness...pure and simple.

[EigthAv]

Regardless of how highly touted your choreographer is,it is still a metter of execution when the ladies are competing.Lipinksi was mentioned in the opening post.Keep in mind that Sandra Bezic choreographed for Lipinski and for Lu Chen for the 1997/1998 season.They executed well in the big Olympics and netted two medals.I can't recall any resentment from either camp towards Bezic for working with both ladies.Had such resentment existed,I'm sure Christine Brennan would have let us know about it.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->I hope it works well for Kwan and for Arakawa.This is THE big Olympic season.I want to see some down right and for real good figure skating throughout the ranks.

[iloveskating]

Thank you Sparks!
Nate, your supposition means that each coach & choreo should only work for ONE skater at a time. You can't say this is for direct competitors only....at one time Tara, Sarah, & Kimmie were not competitors of MK, then later they were. It would also make the coach decide which skaters are a "threat" to his skater & which ones are not. Is it ok for Frank to coach Jenny & Danielle & Bebe b/c they are not all contendors for the podium. No coach would dare say that.

Going back to your parent example, lots of parents share love and support with other children. Usually children in those famlies are healthier emotionally & socially for lots of reasons. Oh, and does that adoption is immoral if a parent has a biological child.

This argument makes no sense. I've said all I have to say.

[berthesghost]

...should she be POed?

They obviously don't have that kind of relationship. It' s not at all like it would have been if TT had choreoed for Plushy back in 02. Shiz and TT aren't close, don't have an exclusive relationship, and don't train together full time. From the K&C alone it's obvious that TT is just a consultant. Maybe the kid next door example would have worked better with Alexei, but obviously this is a "just work" relationship from both sides.

Bascially what you're describing is more like a boss who will only give you part time work, but get poed if you work for other people as well. Or someone who won't be exclusive with you, but get's mad if you date others.

Tara vs Mk was different. They were only two going head to head. This year it's not a match between Mk and Shiz, and the two have no long stanfing rivalry. If anything, Irina and Sasha have the momentum, and then there's caro.

[gratefulmkfan]

The long and short of it is that TT never signs contacts with anyone. Even the students she coaches doen't get it in wiriting, no less the ones she only choreographs for, or coaches only part time. She says they should be afraid to lose her, not the other way around - lol - and she's right, too!

Shizuka may have some feelings about this situation, but she is so "obedient" to her handlers, I doubt she can siphon out what they truly are. I agree with whoever said they don't like Federations, no matter what country. They are out for themselves, not their individual skaters - just whichever skater will make them look good. I hope they both do well, but that Michelle does better, of course :) .

[moskva]

nate, that's quite an ethical dilemma, if there ever was one. on one hand, i agree that choreographers r not bondage laborers and, unless clearly prevented from doing so by contractual covenants, can work with as many skaters as they physically can. but on the other hand, i get ur point also, tarasova is not just a choreographer for shizuka, she is her, albeit part-time, coach. that changes the situation dramatically. coaching one skater and choreographing for another on the side is a little ethically questionable. imagine for ex, moskvina choreographing for the canadians or the chinese at the last olys while coaching elena/anton. hard to conjure up that image, isn't it? and while it's true that the ethics of it is a littlie fuzzy with russian coaches, there r lines that even they don't cross. and coaching one skater while peddling choreography to the competition would be one of them.

even though tarasova was quick to take - no grab - the credit for shizuka's gold, i have a feeling she is for tt but an adopted child who, to top it all off, spends half the time with the other parent. i agree with whoever said that tarasova would not have even contemplated such a move when she coached cohen.

so, even though i m understandably thrilled to behold tarasova's golden touch in michelle's new programs, i cannot help but feel a little sorry for shizuka who, i'm sure, is more than upset about the situation, but doesn't have the freedom to show her displeasure in any way, shape or form; for the japanese federation is even more dictatorial than the chinese one, and that's really saying something. were she free to do that, she would undoubtably produce proof enough of slighted pride for all of us. plus, japan doesn't have a christine brennan to wash in public everybody's dirty laundry.

[lavender]

I don't know..Arakawa doesn't seem like the type to mind. Michelle doesn't seem to mind. These relationships seem a little different but who knows...Arakawa may have the better program. Lately it doesn't seem to be a big deal.

[mzheng]

Well, IMO, 'moral' goes on both way. Had Japanese Federation 'dedicate' SA to TT; that's another story. Like other said, SA may feel little uneasy about the situation, but the one she should blame is her own federation. Not TT, neither MK camp. Besides the way Japanese Federation using TT, IMO, more like a politics arrangement than a true coach relationship. (switching to TT two weeks before the worlds, not to mention Plative did most work on SA's program than TT, how much improvement can she get? yet her scores changed dramatically at the worlds compare to what she got in GPs pre the worlds against Cohen.)

moskvina, did choreograph/coach I/Z while she was coaching elena/anton. Though I/Z was never considered as majore competetor to elena/anton. Then again, as other pointed out SA and MK are not long time head/head competetor either.

[missmarysgarden]

Coaches and choreographers earn their money from....tada!!! "Coaching and choreographing!" It's a business. An athlete has to have pretty deep pockets to tie up a coach or choreographer or trainer exclusively. It can be done - but the excellence of a coach or choreographer puts them in demand - the good, ol' 'supply and demand" drives up the price. To tie up someone of TT's proven talent and reputation (not to mention political connections) is definitely in the multi - six figures. Remember, when you are tied exclusively to one athlete, you take your self out of circulation in the game of "find your next contract among those athletes with the most potential - so your contract would include potential future earnigns loss as a risk of the exclusive contract.

Remember, we are the FANS. TT and Co are part of the business. We can revel in the emotion of it all. They need to make savvy decisions. TT may love Michelle as much as we do - how could she not!? She also admires SA. I'm sure she will do the best she can for each. But the professionals who earn a living in sport must make the best deals they can within that sport; anything else would be irresponsible.

So might SA feel bad? Hey, she's a grown woman. I would hope she has enough experience and sophistication in the FS world to understand how the business works - AND how the game is played. If not, get a good manager.

[iloveskating]

imagine for ex, moskvina choreographing for the canadians or the chinese at the last olys while coaching elena/anton. hard to conjure up that image, isn't it?Moskva, she did exactly this in 1998. She coached K & D as well as B&S. Both teams had gone head to head many times and did so at the Olys too. K&D won gold, B&S silver. Look ath the Chinese...the top 3 pairs are all coached by BY and have taken turns coming out on top.