RATED M: SEXUALITY... Let's talk about it!

[kwancierto de aranjuez]

Editted to add: THis is a mature discussion on sexuality. Parents who may be concerned about the discussion of sexuality, please be advised. It actually has been a very intelligent discussion. It is not at all vulgar but the topic is centered around a very human aspect: our sexualities.
















Is homosexuality genetic or not? Is heterosexuality genetic? Is bisexuality genetic? Is it that black and white? You are either this way or the other way...

If so, what happens to those who argue that sexuality is a spectrum? If it is a spectrum what would be the polar opposites of this spectrum?

Is sexuality more than just about partners? Is it also about behaviors? How is gender tied into sexuality?

[manskater]

Very good question. I am gay and I believe you are "born" that way. I felt different in 5th grade and looking back thought there was something wrong with me. I had girlfriends in high school thinking that would change my emotions but I always felt stronger towards my male friends and realized after college that I was gay.

I've always been am confused about the "bi" issue. I don't think that is a genetic issue. I think that has more to do with experimenting in life.

[kwancierto de aranjuez]

That's interesting... If you are born that way, what exactly is that way? Were you born to be feminine or masculine, wear pants or dresses, have romantic feelings about certain guys? Were you born wanting to have sex with guys? As a gay person, what exactly are you born as? What exactly does it mean to be gay?

What do you say to people who say they don't care for labels? Are they simply in denial?

And what does it mean to be homosexual? Does it all come down to just who you have sex with? Is that how it is defined? Are men in prison who have sex with men because that's all that is available to them homosexual? Or are they engaging in homosexual acts? If so, then is homosexuality all about just the act?

What does love have to do with sexuality? Are they separate?

What if one day I met a woman, is pre-op, and fell madly in love with her... It wasn't until after I found out that I truly loved her that she was a man... (Never mind the deception part) What does this say about true love? Is it conditional? Or how about a hermophodite? What is their sexuality?

Is a "flaming" homosexual more homosexual than say a "masculine" homosexual? Is a "butch" more of a lesbian than a "lipstick" lesbian?

Could it be that homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality are artificial social constructs to classify people in terms of power? There is no doubt that homosexuality exists in nature, but is it we humans, that chose to classify it as that? Animals certainly don't classify themselves as homosexuals or heterosexuals. I have no doubt human are born as sometype of sexuality but what is that sexuality?

What if let's say in 500 years, the "gay issue" (as if being gay is an issue) is resolved in that people are free to marry and loved whom they want. Will there still be a need to identify as gay? What would the relevance of the term homosexual then?

In fact this could be said of racial constructs as well... When, in the future, everyone is basically mixed, there won't be a need for the social construct of race?

Is sexual orientation really biology or sociology? Where is the line?

Incidently, I used to think that homosexuality is genetic, but the more I study sociology, the more confused I am if that really is the case?

[EigthAv]

I'd love to get in the discussion,but ater the reactions to my first post in the other persuasion thread,I am gun shy.Are your minds open? Believe me,mine is.

[kwancierto de aranjuez]

Come on now... don't use that as a copout. If you can't stand the heat...

I mean how can we ever really get beyond discussions that scratch the surface if we don't try to acnowledge people's feelings. Mike, the reason people get really angry about the issue is because they are in pain. It hurts to look at the person you love and not be able to marry them, be ridiculed throughout you're life, or have your relationship with your parents estranged. Beyond the voice of anger, you have to realize that what lies beneath is a voice of pain... something I think we can all relate to...

Anyways, just speak on it. I may get mad and I may get offended but that is part of being real. I am curious with what anyone says.

[EigthAv]

Kwancierto,I will get in here,but this time I'd like to think before I post. Last night,I posted,"without thinking",as I sometimes do,in the other thread and you can see it came out clumsy at best.It's a tougher discussion online than in person where we can all see each other,hear tones and watch body launguge.I'll get back to yaz on this one.

[kwancierto de aranjuez]

Allright, way to go Mike. Besides, this is a discussion on sexuality in general... not just the "gay issue" which has its own thread...

Anyways, when you say heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual... there is so much more there than whom sleeps with whom.

There's a whole system of power associated with it.

We haven't even gotten into the topic of how gender fits into sexuality?

[phisigsig]

I believe you are born either heterosexual or homosexual- you don't "choose" it. I was born heterosexual- I didn't choose to be attracted to guys, I just always was. I have friends who are heterosexual and friends who are homosexual- and none of them made a choice as to who they were attracted to.

[kwancierto de aranjuez]

So, sexuality all comes down to whom you are attracted to? Is it that black and white? No gray area? If you are born gay, what does it mean exactly to be born "gay." If you are born a heterosexual, does it just mean that you will be attracted to the opposite sex?

Does it have anything to do with femininity or masculinity?

What about bisexuals? Can you be born bisexual? Afterall, if you can't help who you are attracted to, bisexuals can't help that they are attracted to both men and women?

I have two women co-workers who state their identities as queer (bisexual) even thought they have male partners. One of them just married their partner. They are proud of their sexual identity and have own it for years. Does that mean they are just experimenting?

Of course, no one would choose to be homosexual. Who would want to be a part of a group that has long been discriminated? So what do gay people choose then? Is femininity as a gay man something you're with?

I was once in the belief of sexuality as being you are either born this way or that way. Throughout the years, having met others in the LGBTQQ community, I am leaning away to just basing sexuality in terms of genetics... it is so much more that to me. Genetics is a part of it for me but so is the sociology part of it for me.

Are crossdressers queer? Are people who've gone through sex changes still considered queer afterwards?

I'm asking so many questions...

[olympic]

Sex Researcher Michael Kinsey developed a "Sexual Spectrum" scale in the 1940s. On a scale of 1 to 6, thousands of men were interviewed and rated scientifically: 1 was completely Heterosexual and 6 was completely Homosexual but note 2-5 is completely in between.

To answer the question "Are you one way or another?" I personally don't believe you are. Just like someone of a mixed race or ethnicity might identify with one ethnic group or another and others may stay right in the middle, people with a "mixed sexuality" might identify more with being either Straight or Gay, while others are completely 50-50 Bisexual.

[kwancierto de aranjuez]

That is so interesting. Was it based on behaviors or who you were attracted to?

What did it mean to be completely heterosexual and completely homosexual?

Would a "flambouyant" homosexual be more complete than a masculine "homosexual" or how about "lipstick" versus "butch."

[olympic]

Kwancierto,

It was based on behavior. I don't even think they made the distinctions in the 1940s that they make now.

When his report was published, it raised a ruckus in Post World War II America, and he was slammed by many Convservatives

[Bliss784]

Just thought i'd add, "Kinsey" the recent movie starring Liam Nelson is worth renting. It shows some of the ruckus that erupted and a few other interesting things.

[bjb22]

ohh puhlezzzzz:rollin

[donnylutz]

I don't really want to get into this conversation...being as I feel I've said all I needed to......I just wanted to write that Canada just became only the 3rd country to allow gay marriage....all providences........just makes me love Canada even more.

Donnylutz :)
:SS

[kwancierto de aranjuez]

Donnylutz... I appreciate what you're saying, but there is a thread on "gay issues" which I have posted on as well that could probably use that information if you don't want to join in this discussion.

This thread is more of an academic discussion on sexuality: hetero, homo, and Q sexuality.

And I do love Canada too!

[bjb22]

I'd comment on this subject but since I am Straight and my tire got slashed on "gay pride" (GP) day I reserve the the right to comment on this at a later time. :(

[olympic]

bjb22,

Are you saying your tire got slashed by Gays just because it happened on GP day? I'm just trying to figure out what you meant.

If that is the implication, it's quite possible anyone slashed your tire. Vandals and Car thieves hang out wherever they have the best opportunity.

[EigthAv]

Does that mean they are just experimenting? <!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Probably so.Experimenting is a very popular sport in our times.Unfotunately,young teens and even kids,in some instances,are experimenting.The trend is not so much classic "going steady",boyfriend-girlfriend and so on.It's hanging out in peer groups and sometimes two or more members of the group "hook up". It's an extension of the olde "if it feels good do it" logic.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->For reasons I don't understand,sex-sex and more sex is encouraged as much,if not more than ever these days.If we had way more room to expand our species and there were no dangers(unwanted prenancies,social diseases) it wouldn't be a big problem.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--> I totally agree that people can't help what they have desires for.The discipline is in looking at the whole picture,weighing the possible dangers and real cost in terms of money and consequences and making wiser choices."If it feels good do it" is what most any animal prefers to practice.Humans are gifted with the power of rational thought and we can be more than just another animal...we can opt for quality over quatity.Our dogs and cats act solely on instincts limited only by us........<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--> please don't take these opinions as a prudish person trying to lay guilt trips on anyone.I'm tempted almost daily.As we agree,the impulses are normal and most of us get them.I'll take low risk in return for long range contentment and security over go for the gusto and all that comes with that.It's similar in some ways to selecting mutual funds. I believe heredity is a factor,along with your experiences in your formative years.......birth to 5 years...........environment plays in,peer pressure is a factor.Drugs play into the equation in many cases.Booze.Music.Even perfumes,cologne and after shave lotions.Mini skirts and hotpants were invented with the mating games in mind. It is a rather complex,multi spendored realm.

[kwancierto de aranjuez]

EightAv,

I just came a retreat with both these women and we were talking about our partners since one of them just got married. I don't think she is experimenting at all. I think she would be very offended by that. She was talking about her marriage ceremony (which was not a legal ceremony) and she said in her ceremony that she talked about her identity as being queer to this man that she loved. She basically described it as a non-traditional queer ceremony. This is in San Francisco where the concept of the gay community isn't just LGBT but also QQ which is queer and questioning.

During dinner we talked about her bisexuality and she says that she is attracted to women but that she really loves her man. They have been together for 5 years.

Then the other woman who is involved with a man (who used to be my roommate as well) also talked about being bisexual and she says that her attractions just come naturally and she and her man (who was also an ex-roomie) are O.K. with that identity.

I, myself, identify as being bisexual. Although I've never found myself being in love with a man, I am attracted to men physically. I've been in love only 3 times and all to women. Being in love with them wasn't just a sex thing but for me it was about how they made me feel about myself and how we spent the time outside of the bedroom. I just haven't found men who "take my breath away." I don't think I could ever find myself loving men. There's just things about male personalities I find unappealing.

Maybe, I just don't fit in people's "you're either gay or you're not" boxes.

I guess there's that question there:

Is sex and love mutually exclusive?

[bjb22]

It certainly was "vandels" (221 needles). The constant subliminal bombing has now manifested again in actual property damage. This is the second time in the 20 months since "Property 221" through it's "H2 Holdings Llc" has owned my apartment that my tire has been slashed.

The secret oligarchial collective in GP plays pretty rough. Look up Oregon Llc law......it reads no differently that an off-shore corp in the Bahamas or the Caymens.

"And in the aftermath the Soldier got rough......
You can have your money
But I don't know how your going to spend it
Living in a tomb"

"Black Diamond Bay"- Bob Dylan ("Desire")

I have written the FBI about these subliminal atrocities (a total recall op city) in GP but they don't seem to be interested in protecting citizens against this "flashback" scourge. The "tire" (total recall instant replay extortion) is only a symptom of fighting an invisable, nameless and faceless enemy. And besides holdinG People captive-hostage though instigated 3rd parties they have predatory intermediaries doing the invisable negotiations.

Living 200 yards from the city skate park and the kids back and forth in front of my apartment day and night I FIGURE SKATE BOARDers did it.

"Everybodies guilty who knows of these things and pretend that they don't exist"- from the movie "Mississippi Burning"

[olympic]

:| huh? Am I missing something??

[mr pru]

Don't worry olympic-

He has escaped from the cavern in Grant's Pass, Oregon where humans are subjected to bizarre experiments.

I had all I could stomach about it in a thread that is at the bottom of the Politics page. Read at your own risk. I laughed so hard, my sides hurt. :lol :lol :lol

A sandwich shy of a picnic just may apply here.

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[bjb22]

Pru, you are wrong in your assumption that I have escaped from the hidden gulag of Grants Pass. You are correct in your reference to the "caverns" of the gap. Grants Pass is "The Home of the Cavemen" (GPHS mascot). Oddly, the Oregon Caves are over 50 miles away (SW) from here.

"In the valley of the Missing Link"

"No Time To Think"- Bob Dylan

Also, to ridicule a Person's intellect based on one issue, is indicitive of a "lower" intelligence. Part of the pru preemption protocol I suppose. :rollin

[mr pru]

Glad you cleared that up.

I wouldn't have been able to sleep tonight.

[kwancierto de aranjuez]

Guys, there is another "gay issues" thread. Let's get back on topic here.

:)

[Jayjen36]

Being in love with them wasn't just a sex thing but for me it was about how they made me feel about myself and how we spent the time outside of the bedroom.

Boy there sure are a lot of ideas to discuss here! But as far as being born straight or gay, I think what you wrote here is key.

I'm assuming this is an "adult" thread, although I'll try not to get too risqué. When you think about it if a person can be sexually stimulated by themselves or an inanimate object it isn't so far fetched that another person, regardless of their gender could do the same thing. So who we enjoy sex with I think has, for the most part, less to do with how we are born and more to do with how we are raised.

I believe that If there were no cultural taboos against same-sex sexuality far more people would openly engage in it, purely for the simple enjoyment of the activity. And of course whatever or whomever was enjoyed, will be desired in the future and will be an object of arousal. Regardless of whether you identify as gay or not if you have had an enjoyable experience with someone of the same sex you'll probably, on some level, be attracted to someone with the same qualities as that one-time partner.

But I think that emotional attachment is very different. Most people remember being somehow "attracted" to either one or the other (or some perhaps both equally) as young children when sexuality has nothing to do with what we feel. I always had crushes on boys. Just always did. From what I understand most people, can remember being very curious about either the opposite or their own sex very early on. I think you are born with an emotional preference. A preference when choosing a life partner/romantic interest.

But at the same time, I believe that for many people there is that sort of number line between 1 and 6. Some people would never think of straying from that emotional choice. Whether straight or gay it is unthinkable for them to consider sex with someone other than this in-born (IMO) emotional first choice. For others that line goes from blurred to non-existent. But, as far as romantic/emotional interest goes they will also return to the "in-born"/emotion first choice.

Ugh, sorry this is so long, but this is a very interesting discussion. I'll be reading!

[EigthAv]

Before I go any further in this thread I want to remind ya'll that it is attached to the Mighty MKF board and therefore can and probably is being read by minors and seniors.Don't post anything in here that you know you wouldn't want your own precious 12 year olde son,93 yr olde grandmum or 10 yr olde daughter to read. I wouldn't want us to wind up on the Dr.Phil Show.:eek

[Jayjen36]

I did try to be as "clinical" as possible while still remaining legible. I'd rather not bother the mods by asking them what is objectionable, so if you would, please explain what is wrong and I'll edit it if I agree.:)

But, I'm not sure just how "kid friendly" we can be and still manage a meaningful discussion of sexuality.

[bjb22]

Kwanderful post but I don't understand the difference between same sex "sexuality" and same sex "activity".

"Talk to me like I'm a six year old"- from the movie "Philadelphia"

[kwancierto de aranjuez]

I just watched the movie "Kinsey" and it was really good. Liam Neeson portrayed the character really well.

That question bears to mind that the couple in the movie was seperating sex and love but when they had sex with another person, it obviously hurt them in some way.

[Jayjen36]

That did sound like an interesting movie. You know there is suddenly a lot of talk about that in the media these days. A lot of the people who do it say that it either makes them feel closer, or doesn't effect their marriage at all. I don't buy that though. It seems to me that by creating a lot of "dramatic" activity outside of their relationship, drama that they are both equally responsible for, so there's no blaming the other partner when things blow up or turn ugly. So when they go back to their "normal" lives that life is intimate, calm and nurturing in comparison.

It might also be that because they share such an intimate part of themselves with everyone, the time that they spend with each other alone with no one else has a false sense of intimacy. They don't need to be as vulnerable to each other as a normal married couple in order to feel a strong sense of intimacy, but they never have as close and loving a relationship either IMO.