Kwanfanatic

[elliebea]

Kwanfanatic,
I just noticed in one of the threads that you're a childbirth nurse (or whatever they're called), so you might have some experiential knowledge on a few things I'm curious about. My granddaughter :D was born five days ago, and some of the experiences they had (my son and his wife) are things with which I'm not familiar.

Would you be willing to tell me what you've seen regarding the following? I'd so appreciate it!!

And apologies to other posters for utilizing 'political' space -- I just don't know if KF checks Random Chat often or not.

These are the "things:"

1. Regarding the use of the epidural: is there any reason to think that this might actually inhibit a woman's ability to push? (My daughter-in-law seemed to find it tricky, and the pushing phase lasted three hours(!) and then required assistance with a vacuum-like device.)

2. Regarding 'induced' labor: Does this actually delay the 'let down' of the milk in the post-birth phase? (I've heard that it might.)

3. Regarding the presence of meconium at birth: My son and his wife were horrified to hear the pediatric nurses declaring their daughter's heart rate during the immediate post-birth clearing of the nose and mouth. It dropped from 140 to 60 before they stopped stating it aloud. Is this really routine, as they said?

4. One last thing -- not about birth -- but nursing: why is this parent-scheduled (as contrasted with 'demand' feeding) considered a better route, such that it is taught at the hospital and advised by the pediatrician? Do you know anything about this?

That last question really confuses me alot, because 37 years ago I had no problem whatsoever with nursing based on the cues from my baby, and yet they have had lots of problems with the schedule and the waking of their baby and all -- such that they've had to resort to supplementing.

Thanks in advance, KF!

Also, anyone else who knows about these matters!

Oh -- and this is me since her birth!

:FL :FL :FL :FL


Her name is Brienna Michelle :rollin

And she looks like this! :angel

And my son went from :eek (during the delivery) to

:\ :p to and finally :D :D :D

(He says her little cheek against his "slays" him.)

[kwanfanatic2002]

COngratulations, I am going to try and answer you quickly. i am having guests over tonite so if I don't get your questions answered now, I will finish tomorrow afternoon, ok.

Congratulations on your new baby. i am sooo happy for you and your family. I love the name too!!!!. Is her middle name after Michelle Kwan. ????

First of all, Yes, epidurals can make labor last longer, even up to an hour.It is not supposed to affect pushing, but it can. Rarely longer than that. A decision to do a C-Section is usually made by then. Forceps are what you are thinking about (vacum like device). I had one with my first delivery and hated it. I felt so ashamed, like I had let her down, but she was fine with it.
Epidurals can inhibit pushing because you do not feel the contractions as well, so forceps become necassary. There are different doses of epidurals available now. Some will even allow you to walk around. There are some that mom can use herself. She pushes a button and is somewhat in control of how much medication to give herself. it is not possible to over medicate. Epidurals are considered safer for the baby because the medicine does not get into the mothers bloodstream, therefore causing trouble for baby. it is best for mom to lie on her side (left side is best) because it improves the blood flow.

I have not heard of anyone having problems with "let down of milk"after being induced. I will ask the drs. when I go to work Sunday nite about that. That is a new one for me. I have never heard of anyone having trouble.

Meconium at birth: Yes it is routine. Babies develop something
called "mecomium aspiration syndrome' before birth and inhale the meconium into their lungs. They are usually placed on a respirator for a short time and do fine afterwards. Did Brienna have any other health problems along with the meconium? Sounds like she inhaled some of it and they just needed to suction it out. Did they place her on a respirator for a period of time?
( I have a phone call and company is here- I'll finish this tomorrow ok.)

[elliebea]

Wow, thanks for the congrats and taking the time for so much of a response at a rushed time!

As for:

Is her middle name after Michelle Kwan. ????

I WISH! I'm the one in the family, but the only one, who makes that particular connection. My son got disillusioned about skating years ago when Nancy Kerrigan didn't win gold (he felt she should have and was very disappointed), so he doesn't get too involved in it or any of the skaters.

A decision to do a C-Section is usually made by then.

The doctor wasn't even contacted about the length of time until they were three hours into the pushing phase! My son and his wife were completely taken with the nurse who stuck with them and helped them so much, and had many praises for her after the fact. They were so dead set against a C-section that it all worked out for the best, though my poor daughter-in-law felt like she'd done three hours of ab crunches and was quite sore.

Forceps are what you are thinking about (vacum like device).

They said that she (my d-in-l) refused the forecepts, and that the device was a suction type thingy (like a miniature toilet plunger) that was attached to the top of Brienna's head. The doctor pulled while 'Mama' pushed.

There are different doses of epidurals available now. Some will even allow you to walk around. There are some that mom can use herself. She pushes a button and is somewhat in control of how much medication to give herself.

Wow, I wonder why none of these options were made available to them? My daughter-in-law had resisted any epidural for way too long and so probably inadvertently brought about the situation wherein her delivery was done with it still in effect.

I have not heard of anyone having problems with "let down of milk"after being induced.

I understand (perhaps incorrectly) that this has to do with the large amount of fluids that are administered in the process, or something like that. Anyway, I've read that the milk let-down is 4 - 7 days (my own was at 3 and a half days).

Did Brienna have any other health problems along with the meconium? Sounds like she inhaled some of it and they just needed to suction it out. Did they place her on a respirator for a period of time?

The meconium was visible at birth and I think the idea was to suction fast enough so that she wouldn't aspirate. Apparently that worked because she didn't require the respirator. It was the quickly lowering heart rate that scared her parents so badly. (Apparently, my son nearly had a complete meltdown hearing this and seeing his wife bleed from after birth.) Is a race against a lowered heartrate typical, or frequent? And biggest question of all, could the lowering be harmful?

All of this is now for some reason so fascinating to me even though I haven't had reason to think about these matters for decades! There were no epidurals in 'my time,' but fortunately instead of drugging me up so that I didn't remember anything, the doctor used some sort of thing that he said produced a 'twilight' state wherein I experienced and remembered things clearly except the pain, and also dozed between contractions. Delivery was a breeze, with three solid pushes and success. Good stuff! (I hadn't realized that my baby would be taken so briskly away for the clean-up, so that part was sort of wrenching.)

You must really love your work! And I'll bet there have been alot of mothers and/or sets of parents who remember you with as much fondness as my two remember their nurse. (She's a heroine in their eyes.)

[kwanfanatic2002]

Ok, I'm back. My computer is on the fritz at home, so I'm defragmenting now so I had to come to the library. That is why it took me so long to get back to you. They don't open until 2 pm here.

first ofall, I was in a hurry yesterday and gave you incorrect information. I'm really sorry about that.

The device you were reffering to is called a "vacuum suctioning device"-that's what we all it at work) and it is used
instead of forceps. I would much rather have the forceps as well, like your daughter in law did. she was smart in refusing them. I am really impressed with both of them. They appear very well informed and intelligent and like very caring parents.
Sounds like Brienna will be in very good capable hands. Sounds like she has grandma around her finger already too.I am impressed with your questions. you're a very intelligent lady. We have patients that should ask questions and don't. They just take our suggestions and don't ask for alternatives or why we are doing what we are doing. I try to explain to them why something is necessary and unfortunately sometimes they are not even comprehending what we are saying to them. I admire and respect you all for asking and making sure Brienna gets the best start in life. She is a very lucky baby,

Mecomium: The lowered heart rate is typical. it is not real frequent at all. I think the numbers are about a 10-20% of babies being affected by it. Was your daughter in law past her due date? That is typically when the meconium becomes a problem. It could cause some very serious problems, such as pneumonia, an infection, respiratory distress syndrome. All of which are serious in a newborn. It sounds like your dil was given excellent care and the nursing staff was superb. I'm happy for her there.

I just talked with a friend I work with that has much more experience in labor and delivery than myself. I am relatively new at this. I worked with regular L&D patients for a short while than started working w/ high risks patients now. My friend said that YES, epidurals CAN cause a let down effect on milk production. She said there is no set data to reflect definetevly(sp?) because researchers are not focusing enough on the problem.
Having an epidural can do more than relazx the contractions, they allow mom to relax, which will make her dilate quicker too. They are usually not given before mom is dilated to a 4. Your daughter in law most likely went to long before requesting one. We most often do not give them after 8 cms.

Epidurals can cause the babies heart rate to decrease. It usually means the blood is not getting to the vital organs and usually just stimulating the babies will cause the baby to breathe correctly and the organs will function correctly. Expanding the lungs is something drs will do. They lift the vagal tone and the heart rate recovers quickly.

I forgot the last 2 parts of your questions. I have different feelings about feeding babies on demand. I don't think there is a clear cut answer. I think each babies particular situation should be considered instead of one clear cut answer.
A baby appetite controls the production of milk. If a baby feeds when hungry, the breasts produce milk faster according to researchers and just enough milk for the baby to feed and not be hungry.
Rigid feeding schedules get in the way of the bonding interaction between mom and baby and need for food and moms ability to provide it. If a baby gets hungry,but does not get to eat because of a schedule, her breast stays full and production slows down. If this continues on, her milk supply will not suffice for her babies needs.

I have discussed this with my daughters dr and he said it is not the same for every baby and every mother. he said it helps to set a routine which helps the child in the future. Some people say (drs. included)that parents should control the situation, not the child.
My Pediatrician said that babies need to adhere to the parents schedule to a point, but feedings should be flexible. A lot of deciding when to feed an infant depends on the childs temparement and personality as well. I tend to agree with him. I fed my child when she was hungry and it all worked out well.

[elliebea]

Oh my goodness -- you're so thorough and knowledgable!!

I'm actually envious because beyond a couple of years of night school college I never developed an expertise or profession myself. And how I wish that I had! (I'm feeling a bit useless to anyone in my life right now, so being THE first-string babysitter for Brienna is a big deal.)

About your computer:
My computer is on the fritz at home, so I'm defragmenting now so I had to come to the library.

I just went through that and was defragging all the time because of screen freeze-ups and an occasional "fatal error' message which required restarting. I was also getting lots of pop-ups. Turned out it was some spyware that had to be removed, and now it works fine. Do you use Adware? I've now got it intalled but haven't used it yet. It's supposed to locate and remove any spyware when you run it.

Regarding yours patients:
I try to explain to them why something is necessary and unfortunately sometimes they are not even comprehending what we are saying to them.

Sometimes I think that many adults don't even realize that they are the decision-makers in their own health-care, simply because in everyone's early experiences with it in childhood, that's really the way it was. Children don't get choices or information for that matter, and thus carry that thinking into adulthood. My own husband, after having three terrible accidents in childhood, one life-threatening and another that permanmentally damaged an eye, still has a child's trepidation -- even a phobia -- about a visit to the doctor. And the questions he asks me in advance belie a fear that the doctor will somehow 'take him over' and do something terrible. And otherwise, he's not afraid of things he should be!

Was your daughter in law past her due date?

Exactly! See, this is what having expertise does for you! That's a detail I didn't know, and I don't think they do either. (She was one week overdue and her fluid was decreasing.)

My friend said that YES, epidurals CAN cause a let down effect on milk production.

That's good to know. I'm concerned that Brienna's mother might feel that she's letting Brienna down, or is not quite 'up-to-snuff' as a mother. I'll have to tell her.

Your daughter in law most likely went to long before requesting one. We most often do not give them after 8 cms.

Wow, as I recall I think she got epidural at 9 cms!

Regarding your whole discussion of the feeding issue, to schedule or not, I think you're right about the variability of infants, and would add that that's true about parents. Each family has to find its own rhythm. I have been a little concerned about the very thing you mentioned:
Rigid feeding schedules get in the way of the bonding interaction between mom and baby and need for food and moms ability to provide it.

I tried to explain that to my son, and he was convinced that Brienna would let herself starve because she wouldn't be demanding, or wakeful enough. The explanation I gave him was that just as a person might salivate upon smelling/seeing good food, the mother's milk releases (that was my experience) and that the feeding cues are sort of the gateway through which the mother can start to gain all sorts of insights about her own baby's communications. Sometimes I think my son should have left them alone and gone back to work sooner!

My 'kids' (son and d-i-l) are respectively an engineer and a very organized accountant (CPA), and I think their modes of thinking are toward scheduling, which is a left-brain process, rather than the right-brain intuition method of response to cues.

In the days before the induced labor, Brienna wasn't moving (in the womb) a lot in the doctor's office and he was concerned so my d-i-l and son spent the evening timing her movements and then she actually did up a spreadsheet to take in to prove that she was alright, just in case. I hope they don't try to regiment everything in their daughter's life!

Oh, and about being a grandma: how lovely and fun to let them do the waking up and all the efforts and to get to enjoy the regular emails with pictures (they're so good at that part!), but the hard part is keeping my mouth shut! I always imagined that I'd never be one to interfere and such, but daily there are so many small things I want them to know! And to watch out for!

Thank you so much for giving so much attention to all this. And for your lovely compliments! This has been great to have someone with expertise to talk to!

[kwanfanatic2002]

Hi Elliebea. Thanks for the nice words and thank you for the informaion about my computer. I have some kind of spyware, but I cannot remember what kind it is. It still has not moved off the "0"% completed defragging. I should have done it more frequently since it is a little bit older computer. My husband wants to buy a new one, but we just moved into a new house and we spent too much on it putting in things my husband wanted. I don't want to spend any more money.

I did not go to college right away after high school. i grew up thinking I was too dumb for college. I went back after several yrs and was working in a hospital ER and enjoyed it so I decided to major in nursing. I was the one that wanted your SS# when you were in pain and bleeding. If you were having a heart attack, I let you see a nurse right away!!!.
I worked in the ER until 2 yrs ago and transferred into L&D.
I love what I do, the patients are usually very nice people. I tend to get too attatched to some of the patients. I got too attatched to one of my favorite patients that finally delivered 2 almost healthy babies a few days ago(may have been the same day as Brienna!!) They had been thru so much and I was pulling so hard for them. i cried when the babies were born. I was sooo happy for them. That is not really a good move on a nurses part.It can take a lot of you also. Sometimes the outcome is not a nice happy outcome all wrapped up with a pretty bow on the top.Thankfully, that does not happen very often. I feel like quitting then because I wonder if I did enough or if the doctor did and what maybe did we do wrong.??. We always go back and discusss it after it is over and then go on to the next patient.

i'm glad the meconium issue is resolved. it usually happens only to moms who go over their due date. There comes a time when it is unhealthy for the baby to be inside the uterus. Your dil was not at that stage. It is usually about 2 wks when it is a problem. Was the meconium a light green thin color, or a thick pea soup like constinstency. (sp?). A lighter shade of green is not so much a problem as the pea soup like one is. That is when most babies develop the Meconium Aspiration Syndrome.That can be a very scary frightening ordeal. Did they do an amnioinfusion? That is when they insert a sterile fluid into the uterus to dilute the meconium. It can also add to the amniotic fluid, since she was losing it. She was doing that because she was overdue. If baby is still in distress after an am amnioinfusion, that is when the decision is made to do a C-Section or use the vacuum suctioning device or forceps:( .

I am really glad for you all that Brienna is healthy and thriving now. SOunds like you all went through a very scary ordeal.

Brienna is not going to starve herself, but I thought the same thing when my child was a newborn. I worried about it constantly. I wondered if I should wake her up and feed her.I asked the doctor about it and he told me to relax, she would let me know when she was hungry. I was always happy to feed her because I didn't want her to be hungry.I finally relaxed and settled down and got into a routine.
It sounds like your son and daughter in law are doing a very great job and yes, you grandma are doing a great job too. I would have welcomed the advice after my daughter was born.I did it alone (most of the time)and I was afraid I was going to make a mistake and hurt her. You are a great grandma and she is lucky to have you and her parents. COngratulatons again and I know about the pictures. They are a joy to have. I have a wall in my home with pictures of Jessica and now my step kids from when they born to their current ones. It is fun to walk down that hall and see them progress. I have pictures all throught the house of the kids. There is no wondering if kids live in my house when you come in.

[elliebea]

Hi again KF!
I know you've got horrendous heat there (you're in Texas, right?), so I hate to complain, but geez, we've got such humidity along with our 96 degree heat that it's like a steam sauna. I just got back from hauling loads of groceries in the house!

About your computer:

It still has not moved off the "0"% completed defragging.

Mine is old too, and after that problem developed it would take as much as 10 hours to do the defragging. Also, it would move forward slowly percentwise and keep jumping back to zero and then rather quickly move back to where it was and slowly inch forward. So I would just leave it overnight or something. So maybe yours is doing the jump back too.

i grew up thinking I was too dumb for college.

Do what? That's sounds so sad! I hope you don't think that now!

I also had a psychological 'glitch' about moving forward in life, and that was some vague sense that good things in life, such as college, were for other people but not me. In fact, I sort of felt 'in the way.' So when my baby was born and I, like all new mothers, feeling that he was the very treasure of the universe, I wondered how could this wonderful treasure could be placed in my unworthy care? Consequently I was in so much fear because this was too good to be true, and I constantly feared the worst. A pediatrician onced got very angry with me and with a raised voice told me that I brought him in too often. He didn't notice that he was dealing with two children, not just one (I was barely 19) and feeling lost and scared.

I was the one that wanted your SS# when you were in pain and bleeding.

That first contact can make or break an injured or sick person's sense of well-being (as in being in good hands). In fact, the times I've either been in the hospital, or present with a family member, it seems that it's not the doctors at all that determine a patient's level of confidence. I was so surprised at that when I had a hip-replacement. The nurses were everything! The ones who were not only friendly but tuned in to what I was trying to say and who were not judgmental made all the difference in my sense of confidence. Such that it wouldn't even matter when they couldn't get in right away to meet some need. I've thought for years that nurses who underpaid, by the way!

They had been thru so much and I was pulling so hard for them. i cried when the babies were born. I was sooo happy for them. That is not really a good move on a nurses part.It can take a lot of you also.

This factor -- about it not being a 'good move' -- has always caused me to doubt that I would be any good in such occupations because of a tendency to over-empathize. The closest I've ever come employment-wise to medical processes was a methadone clinic in CA where I worked in a number of capacities, one as the detox intake person (wherein alot of people arrived quite sick). Also, I wrote (sometimes just typed) client case notes so I knew all their histories and these invariably were so sad, sometimes tragic, such that until I learned to 'carry' this knowledge without being so heartsick and burdened by it, I had a heavy sadness for a long time. I got real attached to a country song that has the lines: "Out on the road that lies before me now, there are some turns where I will spin. I only hope that you can hold me now, 'til I can gain control again" because this is how imagined they felt needing treatment at the clinic.

There comes a time when it is unhealthy for the baby to be inside the uterus.

I never knew this! I was actually convinced that the doctor (in my d-i-law's case) was doing things to suit his schedule! Now I feel guilty. I did have a sister-in-law who had a 10 month pregnancy, then a C-section, and a huge baby.

I don't know anything about the appearance of the meconium that they saw with Brienna. They've moved on now to just enjoying and learning to take of her so probably asking would be just a rehash (after their having told every detail numerous times to numerous people). I wonder why the doctor didn't suggest an amnio-infusion? Sounds like a good idea!

I asked the doctor about it and he told me to relax, she would let me know when she was hungry. I was always happy to feed her because I didn't want her to be hungry.I finally relaxed and settled down and got into a routine.

I guess my son Keith was such a hungry little feller, that was the only thing that wasn't a problem for me. I'd had a high up in the ribcage pregnancy and couldn't eat very much, consequently losing too much weight so that might explain it. He was a very long (22 1/2 inches) baby and only 7 lbs. 14 oz. for all that length. I only weighed 98 lbs the day after he was born (at 5 ft 4 1/2!)

Is it true that back labor is more painful? My d-i-l Marilyn indicated she'd heard that. It's what I had and initially the doctor misdiagnosed my labor (over the phone) as a kidney infection and had me taking a diuretic in addition to the antibiotics. I had red lobster lips afterward!

Oh yes, the pictures! I'm just so glad for modern technology so that Marilyn can send them by email. That way, I can see and get detailed input without bothering them so much. I can't get over there daily or even as often as I'd like. I don't drive these days because some years ago I developed some sort of anxiety about it. (It came about after having had seizure activity behind the wheel -- fortunately without accident -- and now the control of a moving vehicle, though fine as a passenger, produces a panicky feeling.) But it's one of my personal ambitions -- to be able to get back behind the wheel and get over there! :b

Thanks again, KF!

[kwanfanatic2002]

We have a lot in common. I can relate to so much of what you posted.

I forgot to say yesterday that you are not useless. Your son and daughter in law needs you, your other family members need you and Brienna certainly needs you.!!!.I think grandparents are so vital to a childs upbringing. You give them roots and a sense of wellbeing, and you can spoil them and get away with it.I think it's important for a child to be spoiled a little bit.I think it's important in a young childs life to know where they came from. They need the relationship of their grandparents to help them know who they are.

I can relate somewhat to what you are feeling. I know everyone feels things differently. I had similiar times in my life when i felt that way. I still do sometimes. You sound like a very intelligent lady, very compassionate and you have a lot left to give. I know for sure that we need you here!!!. Michelle Kwan needs you too.!! This upcoming season is an important one and she needs all the support. She is still going to be a legend and the best skater of all time (at least in my eyes) with or without the gold, but I want it for her so bad.

I can relate about the weather. it sounds like it is unusually hot for everyone this summer. I am so ready for fall or even winter. We dont have a cold fall really. I don't know why I am having such a hard time this summer with the heat.

I was dusting a little while ago and accidentally hit the mouse or something and my defragging was GONE!!. It was still on "0". after all this time. I started it again and it froze up, so I turned it off and remembered a friend and my husband both saying that is best to do a "scan disk" first before defragging, so I am doing that. I am so mad at myself. i was doing a maintanence wizard ( or something like that and it was on defragging.) It usually defrags for me in a hurry. Anyway, I hope it hurries.

I can relate to that country music song sooo much. There was a couple of times in my life that I felt so overwhelmed and things were awful. I had a newborn baby, I was alone and my family was not helping me much. I had a close friend but she had her own family to care for. I didn't want to be a pest to her. I can relate a lot. Do you know the name of the song and who sings it. I enjoy country music a lot. I cannot stand heavy metal or rap. Never could stand heavy metal music, even as a teenager.That was a lifetime ago.

Yes, it is true that labor pains in the back are more painful. I had my pain in the back too with my first pregnancy. I thought I was just having a bad back problem,nothing serious. I didn't relate it to being in labor until it started getting worse and I called the doctor abnd he told me to go to the hospital because I was in labor.

[elliebea]

Hi again KF!

Yeah, I think so too -- about having alot in common!

There's much to address here, and something particularly important, but first that song: it's by Rodney Crowell, and called "Til I Gain Control Again." It's been done not only by him, but several other persons/groups. I first heard Emmy Lou Harris doing it, and you just know how she sings every note like she's crying! (Though that doesn't work for every song, I don't think, it's perfect for this one.) Here are the lyrics:


'Til I Gain Control Again

Just like the sun over the mountaintop
You know I'll always come again
You know I love to spend my morningtime
Like sunlight dancing on your skin

I've never gone so wrong
As for telling lies to you
What you see is what I've been
There is nothing I could hide from you
You see me better than I can

Out on the road that lies before me now
There are some turns where I will spin
I only hope that you can hold me now
'Til I can gain control again

And like a lighthouse
you must stand alone
Landmark the sailor's journey's end
No matter what sea I've been sailing on
I'll always pass this way again

Out on the road that lies before me now
There are some turns where I will spin
I only hope that you can hold me now
Til I can gain control again


Now, about that important thing: you managed to say, with the most perfect timing, the most perfect thing for me to be reminded of, and that is about the important roles of grandparents.

I think grandparents are so vital to a childs upbringing. You give them roots and a sense of wellbeing, and you can spoil them and get away with it.I think it's important for a child to be spoiled a little bit.I think it's important in a young childs life to know where they came from. They need the relationship of their grandparents to help them know who they are.

This is fantastic! Just this morning I was thinking (during prayer) about Brienna's grandfather, who is a much troubled person and is regularly quite difficult for the whole family (his siblings, father, me in particular -- after 33 years apart -- and for his own son, whom he didn't contact for 27 years). Your words wake me up to why this man is still very much a VIP in the larger scheme of things (as I had always recognized regarding his relationship to his son, until recently), no matter how annoying he can be with the adults. It's very important that this annoyance, and/or negative opinions, NOT be aired or demonstrated in her presence. They and I can honor him for her sake, and for his role in her being here. And also it gives me an impetus in prayer for him.

I also got a huge boost personally out of your words, and I so appreciate it! It's sort of a 'waking up' realization to the value of grandparents and my own role. Thank you so much!

OH! and about Michelle!

Michelle Kwan needs you too.!! This upcoming season is an important one and she needs all the support. She is still going to be a legend and the best skater of all time (at least in my eyes) with or without the gold, but I want it for her so bad.

Lately, I've found myself thinking more and more and more about her and all that she has meant in my own life and what she does for so many people. And yes, like you described, her 'needing' us. Doesn't it feel almost like a sacrosanct role -- to watch and 'be there' for her when she competes? I've always had this inexplicable sense that not only do I want to watch, but that she needs me to be there for her -- that in the universal scheme of things, and perhaps not quite understandable to ordinary human cognition, but nonetheless true -- that we each must be there for her. And it works!

I don't want to get my emotions too wrapped around gold/not gold this time, though for sure, I too want her to finally experience that. But somehow, this time seems more like a celebration of all things KWAN, and her happiness and satisfaction are more important. In 2002, I got so I was living and breathing 'gold for Michelle, gold for Michelle' and everything else in life (practically) took a back seat.

Whatever it is that makes her what she is to such a multitude of people, I think will always remain inexplicable. It can't be dissected through analysis of technique or style, or any such thing. It's a conveyance of beauty and honor and joy that is truly beyond any comprehension, or even definition. My letter to her in this thread,
p216.ezboard.com/fmichell...1&stop=280 (http://p216.ezboard.com/fmichellekwanforumfrm16.showMessageRange?topicID=1 .topic&start=261&stop=280)

says,

Throughout the years, I've tried so hard to figure out (thus describe) this 'effect' of yours. It's been a never-ending quest to know, 'What IS IT about Michelle Kwan?" I've searched for the answers through learning technical particulars of skating and I've posed the question to others on the Forum. I've contemplated deeply on the matter through my religious beliefs (Buddhism) which actually may contain some answers, but how could one ever possibly describe it? Should I point out that 'when Michelle gracefully lifts an arm or leg (or both), that the very shape of the space thus opened becomes a vibrant, living thing--then another, and another?' Possibly that 'when Michelle is skating, it's as if time stands utterly still as if in an all-encompassing eternal moment?' For sure, I can say that 'it is as if Michelle sees and reflects back to us the beauty and sublimnity that resides within each and every one of us.'

When you were a teenager, I used to very often wonder, 'Does she even know she's doing it?' I still wonder that, but not so much anymore because it doesn't matter. The boundless appreciation I feel (and that we all feel) is what matters. Also, YOUR HAPPINESS is what matters most to all of us.

(When that chance to respond to her arose, I really just gushed, no holds barred, my thoughts and feelings.)

Now it's her happiness with an Olympic experience that matters the most -- nothing other than that. But I'd love to see at least a standing ovation that goes on 20 minutes full volume! Americans need to get over there to do the job!

(And by the way, I'm among those who still secretly feel that in 1998, Michelle was the best, and it should have been called that way.)

About this:

I don't know why I am having such a hard time this summer with the heat.

Yeah! What is it about this year's heat? There have been other summers with the temperatures in that range, but this is mysteriously challenging. I've been trying to figure out why this heat is so very much more bothersome than any other year. Even the level of humidity -- which is always bad -- doesn't seem to explain it. But I can hardly breathe outside.

About:

. . .remembered a friend and my husband both saying that is best to do a "scan disk" first before defragging
I didn't know that! I wonder why. I always skip that part, but maybe it makes a difference.

And about country music. . . I just love traditional country music. You know, Loretta Lynn and the whole crowd. What I hear these days has a different rhythm -- one that should be really should be termed soft rock. Though I like soft rock fine, I just don't with country themes and instrumentation. Ricky Skaggs was a big favorite for a number of years (and still is, on the occasions I hear him). That's probably because I have a huge soft spot for plain old bluegrass, and his arrangements are well-adorned with those sounds. Years ago, I played some bluegrass fiddle, though not with a whole lot of expertise!

I'm not big either on heavy metal or rap -- though I think both are very interesting once in a while, especially the rap. And the band Metallica has amazing musicians (though I always sort of felt their talent was wasted on that stuff). I used to call heavy metal the 'primal scream,' of a male identity in crisis.

Interesting about the back labor pain: gee, now I feel even proud of having toughed it out! (Or something.)

It's fun talking to you, KF. As you can see, I'm very much a talker!

And thanks again for your helpful words!

[kwanfanatic2002]

Hi, thank you for the words to the country song. That's a great song. I am going to try and find it. I like Ricky Skaggs too, he's a great person, great singer, and not bad looking either. I definelty agree about the traditional country music.
My husband and brother in law are bluegrass fans somewhat.

I agree about Michelle too. She is amazing. When she didn't win in 98 and 02, I was devestated. I think she should have won in 98. Michelle is one of a kind and I doubt very much there will ever be another Michelle. I think the skating world will truly miss her when she retires. I honestly think Michelle is the reason why most people even go and watch skating. If you ask a normal everyday person who is somewhat a skating fan if they could name a skater other than Michelle, I wonder how many could. Michelle is breathtaking on the ice and like you said, the world seems to stand still when she skates. I like what you said and the poster sid about her. SHe is truly the best and always will be.

I am impressed that you stuck out the back pain. I didn't, I wanted the medicine. I'm a wus when I am in pain. I want the drugs.

I have enjoyed talking to you too, I too like to talk. My daughter is quite the talker too. Sometimes, I have to tell her to take a breath and play the quiet game for a couple of minutes. That is probably not a good thing to do.I don' t mean
anythign bad by it. She will talk your ear off. I should just be grateful she even wants to talk to me.
I had a mother that had some problems. She was the troubled one in my family. I never knew if she loved me, but I always knew she favored my sister. I can relate to how it affects families and not putting those memories onto our kids and grandkids. I don't say bad things about mom to my daughter. I want her to remember my mother (what little she saw of her). My mother was in the next town and never made an attempt to even come and see her and get to know her. She didn't come and see me in the hospital. I feel sorry for her that that was how her life was and she felt that way. She is gone now and my daughter does not have good feelings about her at all. She knows that her grandmother did not want to see her and know her. Brienna is fortunate that her grandmother does love her and wants to get to know her and be around her. She will have great memories growing up of you. My stepmother adores my daugher now and those feelings are returned. A small part of me still hurts and is angry with my mother for her actions. I am trying to work on that now and forgive her. it isnot easy. My mother didn't want much to do with me or my brother unless she wanted something or it was her birthday. I feel for your son being apart from his father. I hope I never do anything to hurt my daughter and stepkids. They are all so special and I love them all. I cannot imagine doing anything to hurt them, espicially on purpose.

[elliebea]

This is so surprising. On this:

I had a mother that had some problems.

Me too! My mother suffered mental illness, had to be hospitalized and received electrotherapy, and just three weeks after her last hospitalization my father (38 yrs. old) died suddenly of meningitis, and she was widowed with four kids under 12 (I was just barely 7).

She was never quite right and regularly threatened suicide and also seemed to blame the circumstances of her life on having the responsibility of kids. Yeah, it created an unwanted feeling! My brothers (3 of them) seemed to have more appeal to her than I did -- the standard 'rival' things, you know.

In later years, she and I became very good friends, I think because I was the only who would listen to her and take her concerns seriously, and she very much treasured me. Fortunately, I got to spend five days with her (on a trip to the east from the west coast) and this was only a few months before she suddenly died (peacefully). She had been really difficult for all of us when we/I were trying to take care of young children and spouses, but I had come to appreciate her very much thankfully before she passed. She had managed to keep us all together with a very tight budget in spite of her own problems! And now I only remember the good things, mostly.

Nonetheless, these sorts of problems in childhood do tend to leave a residual psychological leaning toward low self-esteem or something, so I know what you mean! It's difficult. And the challenge is to know at all times that 'past isn't destiny.'

I've been real busy in the last few days because my religious organization (which is Buddhism) is having a study conference here in my town and it's up to all the members (including me) to put it all together. It will be at a local college (at really nice one) and there's been alot to do. It starts tomorrow morning and I'm so looking forward to it! Even shopped for something new to wear (though nothing fancy, I'm too old!).

I've even taken a break from politics for a few days. It's really so much better to get to know people -- like you, for instance!

[kwanfanatic2002]

Hi, I know what you mean. I am trying not to be so involved with it. I have other things to do and think about that directly affect my life and my familys life. I have enjoyed this, getting to know you. I think that is needed on this board.

I hope you have a good time this weekend. It sounds like fun, but a lot of hard work. I like the excuse to buy some new clothes. I am always in favor buying new clothes. I don't think I could ever have too many clothes or shoes.

My mother was a trip. She suffered from depression, I'm sure. She was never diagsnosed though, that I know of. She was mean and most of the time, it was all about her. On my last 2 birthdays, she did not even call me or send me a gift,but said something a week later about me having a birthday coming up soon.!!!. I eventually just tried to shrug it off and not let it get to me. SHe didn't want to come to my high school and college graduation because it was raining both times. My father talked her into coming to my high school graduation, but not college.
I try so hard to be a better mother to my daughter and my step kids. It is so important to me that they know they are loved and wanted. I do everything with them and support them in all they do. Thankfully, I married someone who is a very good father too. My daughter adores him.

Have fun this weekend and I'll talk with you later.