So, who'd like to explain spins to me?

[SJB]

Just curious and trying to pick up more knowledge of technique....

First, I know that headless scratch spins, like Denise Biellmann used to do, and NNN did at Nationals, are considered very, very difficult. What makes them so difficult? Just that you can't "spot" as you turn? It doesn't seem like skaters spot anyway--do they?

What about other spins when your head is thrown back--are they more difficult than the same spin with your head straight forward? I'm thinking of Michelle's Y spin, and other variations in her combo spins where she throws her head back--does the head thrown back make these spins harder? How much harder? For ex., Sarah H. does a Y spin, but with her head in normal position--so is Michelle's Y spin harder than Sarah's? I notice that Michelle is one of the few skaters who uses the thrown-back head position quite a lot--is it because it's more difficult?

And, while we're on the subject of throwing our heads back, just how difficult is a layback spin? I don't mean the free leg, or how much you can arch your back, but if headless spins are that tough, it would seem to me that spinning with your head and whole upper body completely upside down would be horrendous (you certainly couldn't spot). Yet, everybody does laybacks!

Well, this inquiring mind wants to know. Thanks for any info!

[AYS]

All I can tell you SJB, is when I try to do layback spins I start to feel nauseous after a couple of them. I'm sure the tendency toward dizziness is greater with headless spins as well, but as with spinning in general, you eventually train the inner ear to tolerate it, I think.

I would also imagine that centering and maintaining balance during a headless spin shows greater control, since throwing the head back changes the center of gravity of bit.

So many of the things that Michelle is really great at, and so many of her variations, seem aimed at demonstrating her exquisite body control, and the independence of her edge control from what the rest of her body is doing (i.e. keeping her gorgeous extension during the change-edge spiral). Look at the part of "Hands" where she is gliding on one foot lifting her free leg in three different positions in succession (to the side, to the front, to the back). Look at how solid the skating foot stays...not a waver.

Sorry, guess I got off the topic here...<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :O --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":O"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON STOP-->

[Karin]

When I see MK's head "thrown" back spins...I feel it's more open and free... she's looking up to the "skies" rather than straight ahead... :-) JMO...

AYS...I agree about MK showing great control...unfortunately...not everyone appreciates the details MK puts into her skating...so many people I know only look at jumps jumps jumps...(Oh I mean #of rotations...not even height on jumps...distance covered...or take off & landing positions...) sigh!!!

Oh...the Kwan-spiral in Hands looks liked she carved an 8 on the ice!!! Anywayzzz...me too went off topic!!!

[skateobsessed21]

Headless spins are more difficult, especially fast ones like scratch spins, because it changes your balance. I think Sarah and Michelle's Y-spins are about equal, MK's is headless, but Sarah has better extension. Now as for laybacks -- I think they're pretty difficult anyway. I remember Nancy Kerrigan in '94 saying she wished they'd stop making it a requirement in the short program because they were so hard. I think it's relatively easy to attain the proper back position *or* proper leg position. It's doing both at the same time that throws everyone off. For example, Michelle's leg position was criticized, she improved it, but she sacrificed a little of her back position. Now that's being criticized. Skaters don't really have to spot their spins, it's the centering that keeps them balanced. And the more they train, the more their body gets used to the speed, positions, etc.

[AYS]

A lot of skaters seem to close their eyes while they spin...I'm not sure what I do, but I know I'm not aware of seeing the rink spin around during the fast part of scratch spins so maybe I sort of do. My sit and camel spins are still too slow to make it matter, heehee.<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :O --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":O"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON STOP-->

[axelkid]

My teacher told me how to do a headless spin a couple of weeks ago and I tried it. Throwing the head back really makes you feel the spin. You get kind of sick if you do it too much (probably 'cuz centrifugal force is making your brain bang against the top of your head). But I have a feeling that those skaters are so well practiced that the difficulty of doing those spins is not much greater than anything else.

[CaptCanada]

The only thing that would make it better would be if she were on an edge...she's actually gliding on a flat as she lifts her leg. I only wish the ABC camera had shot it from a different angle as she did it. I have a good angle on it from either Jpan Open or the pro-am, but I like the Nats performance best.

[SJB]

CaptCanada, I always grumbled about that video too! While I love "Hands" from the Nationals exhibition, it JUST DOESN'T SHOW THAT MOVE well enough. So I have on tape the performance from Keri, which shows it well, then right after that the Nationals performance. Sort of a video combo!

Thanks to all for your info on headless and laybacks--I can much more vicariously enjoy the sensation of "making your brain bang against the top of your head" (LOL! thanks for that vivid image, axelkid!). And good luck with all your spins, AYS--watch out for that brain-banging, I wouldn't want to have you stop posting!

[AYS]

axelkid is the one doing the brain-banging...I don't spin fast enough to do that type of damage. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :rolleyes --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/eyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON STOP--> I do more brain-banging on these internet boards... <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :lol --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON STOP-->
(not MK Forum though; MKF is a soothing brain-balm compared to the other places I visit)

[Googoo]

I thought the camera work at the Nats Exhibition had other poor moments too (when the camera went REALLY far away, almost over head). Ugh.
Anyway how DO you spin period?? What's the key to a fast spin??