Callaghan thinks message being sent

[Tandy]

www.mercurynews.com/mld/m...287418.htm (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/8287418.htm)

"Richard Callaghan, who coaches U.S. bronze medalist Jenny Kirk at the Onyx in Rochester Hills, was surprised at the referee's call. "It seems like they're sending a signal" to Kwan, he said, declining to elaborate."

If this is the case I am done and I hope ABC and ESPN cut the TV contracts even more!

[kwanette]

Very interesting....I think they sent her a signal in 02, also.after SLC..Then in the fall of 02...they sent her a smoke signal..."Help! Help! Please save Skate America!!!!!!"

[fanforever]

LOL kwanette! :)

[Eeyora]

Did anyone notice the mistake at the bottom of the article in which they stated that the last time Kwan was in fourth after the short programs at worlds was in 97. When in fact she was fourth in 99 after the short program.

[uncchristine99]

LOL kwanette...

but seriously.. what "message" is he talking about? She needs to retire already? She needs to do what?

[snowbird]

I hope she sends a message right back at 'em.:RP

[cianni]

thats not their job, JUDGING is and they arnt doing a very good job.

[TAF2984]

they always ask his opinion. I wonder why? In any case he is implying that the judging may be corrupt not anything bad about MK.

[CL]

Questions:
What's really happening to her coaches?
Were they part of this?

Questions:
She needs to start participating other competitions.

Questions:
Should MK break her hip in order to prove that she can do two 3/3 in comp.? So what, after 2006. What is she going to do? FS is the only thing she knows how to do. she might have forgotten how to walk....

If I were her, I would be very happy to go back to UCLA, finish her college and turns to PRO...

[crazysoul80]

A troll amongst us???????

[CharmingRose]

Done with ABC, ESPN, cut the TV contracts even more? What the heck? This whole situation is so laughable.

Now, I know here in MK Land, NO OTHER SKATERS exist. I'm fully aware of that. MK is the be all and end all of figure skating. She is a god among god's, yada yada yada. But I encourage...urge you in fact, to take off your MK rosey glasses for a week and *gasp* REALIZE THERE ARE OTHER SKATERS IN THE WORLD. I know, I know...it sounds out of this world doesn't it? Another skater besides MK? Well, honk my hooter...who ever knew! :rolleyes

So, they're sending a signal to MK. They're telling her..."Michelle, IMPROVE. Push your skating! You do the same program to different music every year. New people are coming up, we love you, but you gotta get moving, or get out." That's all. You might not think it, but I am a huge MK fan! I love her skating and her to pieces, but I know where she needs work, and her being in 4th is not something that is surprising to me. But I must say, some of you on here are just plain scary when the idea of MK not being 1st is here in reality.

[ScoobertDieu]

She really wants to go to the next olympics though, and I will be behind her 100%.

[crazysoul80]

I don't think it would take an idiot not to realize that there are OTHER skaters.

But what you're forgetting is the fact that Michelle has been the most dominant skater of her era. It took a long time for her competitors to come near her level of skating and thankfully that's made skating more exciting but when you're used to perfection for so long, you can't help but be spoiled hmm?

And of course most of us think that there is need for improvement for Michelle.

[kwanette]

Charming Rose, Some of us here were fans of the sport before Michelle Kwan was born.

[crazysoul80]

I was a fan even before Michelle came along. It just happened that Michelle made me more of a fan in the process. She is the main reason why I watch the sport.

[Baxter The Cat]

that Kwan should be given all 6.0's if she doesn't deserve it...the point is that she should be placed based on how she performed and not on some agenda to tell her that she needs to increase her technical difficulty, etc.

[crazysoul80]

If that was so, they should give the same message to other skaters who don't have a 3/3 combo.

[chipso1]

CharmingRose:

If you want to bash michelle on her weaknesses technically (which she is OBVIOUSLY working on cuz she hired RA), don't do it in the MKF. I am NOT saying that we can never DISCUSS what she needs to work on or that there aren't other skaters in the world, but *gasp* we do discuss what she needs to work on and we do realize that there are other skaters in the world. Take a deep breath and settle down.

A difference of opinion is acceptable, but please stop trying on purpose to be negative. Drop the attitude - it isn't necessary.:rolleyes

[ICEDIVA]

Of course there are other skaters than Michelle. THis issue has nothing to do with that. This issue is a matter of fairness. Michelle should be judged on her perfomance period. It doesn't matter if the movements are the same as long as she does them great. Michelle took a step in the right direction by hiring Rafael. We all said that it would be next year before we see any real changes. But one would have to be blind to see that Michelle is the target of bad judgemental decisions at this worlds. Yes, even in her qualifying...4.9??? whatever

[millenniummagicz]

charming rose, we are not saying no one else cares. but the over all judging was not fair at the lady's event. And we are discussing the matter that Mk was judged biased against. You know, like the same way we were talking about the SLC pair scandal AT Michelle Kwan Forum, and 1994 Olympic Nancy Oksana debate. Please, look around before you write.

[Darkchilde11201]

CharmingRose said:

[["So, they're sending a signal to MK. They're telling her..."Michelle, IMPROVE. Push your skating! You do the same program to different music every year. New people are coming up, we love you, but you gotta get moving, or get out." That's all.]]

I'm curious. How would you know that these are the collective thoughts of all 14 judges?

Do I really have to DEFINE for you what it means to JUDGE a competition? It's not about sending freaking MESSAGES! Fairly judge what is presented IN RELATION TO the other competitors.

It's as simple as that. For CHRIST'S SAKE! IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anybody got a valium?

[CharmingRose]

Who said I was bashing Michelle on her technical weaknesses? Because I'm not. I will be the FIRST one to say, Michelle has perfect technique. She has done the 3/3's before...why isn't she doing them now? Because she's become comfortable. She's been able to get by with other people's mistakes, and not do 3/3's. This Worlds has caught up to her, and she has GOT to do the 3/3's.

No, I'm not the one who needs to calm down. It's posters going around taking out all their anger on Sasha, and saying they "hate her and Robin's guts" and other people LAUGHING at that, that needs to calm down. :rolleyes
Don't have a cow just cause MK is 4th after the SP. The world will go on...

[ScoobertDieu]

If they want to send her a message, they should just write her a note instead of judging her unfairly. This girl does not do all that training for nothing.

[neneth]

The way I interpret it.They want Michelle to move on.Isn't it that was everbodies hopping to happen after SLC.So that other skater can medal.

[ShowMeTheKwan2]

Exactly, crazysoul80. If the "message" they were trying to send was to have Michelle up her ante, then they should have sent the same "message" to everyone without a 3/3. Whatever--the ISU just has it in for Michelle, and this whole thing is just crazy. I agree with whoever (GinnySmith?) said they feel like they're in the twilight zone. Me too!

[pluto3658]

Richard Callaghan is no judge. The judges are in no position to send messages, not even smoke signals, they are in a position to judge, period; unless the federation has decided differently.

If Mr. Callaghan is implying that the Judges want to see Michelle move on, then I would challenge the federation on age discrimination. No one sent signals to Maria B. when she was skating. No one does that in sports. You compete until you can't. I don't understand the mentality of some people. If these young women are good, which they are, then they can win fair and square. Let them fight for the title. Why should a figure skater leave eligible competition because some other "princess" wants the title? Let the "princess" fight for it, stand on her feet and perform.

Seems to me that someone(s) in the US camp timed the performance and planted a seed somewhere. Some of you may think that I'm into "conspiracy theories", on the contrary. I think US figure skating has been struggling(ratings, revenues, etc...) and perhaps a bit of controversy might pick up the pace a bit. I'm not nuts...I think someone(s) not necessarily "eastern bloc" was behind this...JMO.

[graciesfriend]

chipso, ITA with you. Michelle herself has said she needs to push herself, that OTHER SKATERS are doing more difficult jump combos.

So charmingrose, if Michelle acknowledges other skaters you can bet your jr. mints that we do too!

The reason she is in 4th place is not because of her skating, or lack thereof, but because of a questionable call by a referee which should be overturned.

[ScoobertDieu]

"The reason she is in 4th place is not because of her skating, or lack thereof, but because of a questionable call by a referee which should be overturned. "

Thank you!


I think we're going to see triple triples in the LP of MK. She is prepared.

[Darkchilde11201]

Dear CharmingRose:

Whatever your agenda is, it's not working here. Or maybe it is if you want to try and rile a few people. I'm beyond that, and so are most of the regular posters on this board.

Perhaps she's chosen not to do triple-triple combos because she wants to extend her longevity within the sport? That MIGHT be a viable reason, as well.

You said:

[[This Worlds has caught up to her, and she has GOT to do the 3/3's.]]

Hmmm. It's interesting that the current LEADER did not need them. So from WHERE is your logic coming?

NAHHHHHH! I think we got your number a while back.

Try again.

[millenniummagicz]

wow, Sasha is doing a triple double, a double axel, and a triple flip, so great for pushing the technical content and uppering the ante. Good for her. doink

or, maybe the real message that the judges are sending is

oh Sasha, please stop flutzing, or we cant give you all 6.0s for the marks.


we are just comparing some similarities and differences between the two because they had similar elements, meaning the triple double, triple flip and double axel. Mk is indeed judged unfarily.

[cchen24]

Can someone tell me who applied those deductions in the sp? The judges themselves? or the referee?

Based on what I read, it seems to me that the judges didn't even know what went on during the competition since they looked confused. It makes me conclude that the deductions were done by the referee. If any message was sent, it must have been sent by this guy, I guess. If that's the case, then the judges were not that sick of Michelle's skating just yet since she would have collected quite a few 6.0's today even though she skated second in the group. THAT IS AMAZING!

If the deductions were really done by the referee, it seems to me that he overpowered the whole judge panel. If I were one of the judges, I wouldn't have felt happy with this call. Why was the referee doing that? I don't know. My guess is that he might have some agenda against Michelle...

[lasaslav]

This really kills me, and I'm really not surprised. Richard Callaghan is a fan of Michelle's over the years, so I'm sure he's telling it like he sees it.

[taf]

Besides, the skater in FIRST PLACE has EXACTLY the same tech content as Michelle. Why don't they send Sasha a message? She's 19-Michelle had done many 3/3's in comp by then. Why don't they consider Sasha "just not good enough"? Could it be because they don't judge her by a different standard than everybody else.

[MagdalenaM]

I think we're going to see triple triples in the LP of MK. She is prepared.

You know, this crossed my mind this morning even before the SP was skated. I have a feeling you might be right.;)

[fredonia]

charmingrose...where the charm? ;)

[savvysearch]

That post doesnt make sense because its the SHORT program and TFB. It's skated with more fires and intricate choreography than the rest of the field. She is not being comfortable. Furthermore, is this a jumping contest? MK is top notch above the other skaters. ANd we are talking about a severe penalty NOT because of laziness that got her 4th.

[crazysoul80]

I was wondering the same thing taf.

Richard Callaghan explained the message:

"I think they are telling her to retire," veteran U.S. coach Richard Callaghan said.

"Or maybe," he added, half in jest, "that they don't want any rich Americans in the sport."

[probativev]

Callahan said outright in Phil Hersh's article that the judges' message is that Michelle should retire.

Yeah whatever, he must have been deaf when they sent Todd that message.Either that or he's lost it and is now hearing things.

And gee I wonder what message they are sending Jenny who is buried in like 15th or 16th? Does Callahan hear that one or does he need a hearing aid?

Alexa

[TripleAxela]

cchen, I am a judge and can answer your question. The referee informs the panel that the program was over and by how much. It is then up to the judge to take the required deduction. The judge then submits his/her mark. The referee does not touch the marks at all. The mark submitted by the judge is what you see on the scoreboard/screen, and whether or not they took the deduction we don't know; they are supposed to do so, however.

BTW, the deduction is .1 off each mark for every 10 seconds over, which means if you're 1 to 10 seconds over, you get .1 off each mark, but if you're 11-20 seconds over you get .2 off each mark. You'd be surprised at how many skaters actually get the latter deduction at local competitions!!!

[egskater0003]

Well at least Callahan has the guts to say it out straight like most of us see it.

But why target kwan? What has she ever done to upset the ISU? She's only ever been gracious in the FS world and has so much class and knows better than to be all catty about things when it doesn't end up in her favor.

I feel so bad for MK right now, but I know she'll come out fightng and blow all those freaking naysayers away!

[Joanna31]

Who said I was bashing Michelle on her technical weaknesses? Because I'm not. I will be the FIRST one to say, Michelle has perfect technique. She has done the 3/3's before...why isn't she doing them now? Because she's become comfortable. She's been able to get by with other people's mistakes, and not do 3/3's. This Worlds has caught up to her, and she has GOT to do the 3/3's.



THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!

[BatonKwan]

If Richard Callaghan wants Michelle to retire, then it's because he wants some of his skaters to have a chance to medal.

[crazysoul80]

We've known that Michelle needs to up the technical ante but what bothers me more is the fact that you should say the same about other skaters who lack the technical ability with the exception of the Japanese ladies. They are the ones who are pushing the standard in jumps.

[ScoobertDieu]

Triple, my understanding is that the judges gave their marks, and then the ref did his deduction. Because at first they had Michelle in 2nd place, then it got changed to 4th. I think this came from one of our MKF reporters in Germany, perhaps one of the 3 musketeers. But that alone would be a violation of the rules, because the ref is to blow the whistle at the time of the violation, and apparently he didn't. And the report also said the judges were even surprised at what happened.

If this all is correct.

[crazysoul80]

Then the ref's complaint has no merit would it not?

[Darkchilde11201]

Joanna31, please. Gimmee a break.

If, as CharmingRose says, MK has "perfect technique," then explain to me WHY (even BEFORE the deductions were taken) her tech scores from some of the judges were so low in relation to the Japanese skaters, who both had more difficult combos but "not so perfect technique."

[chipso1]

that's what i was thinking crazysoul. Also, some people said that he didn't even discuss it with the judges until long after. hmmmm. . . . .something smells fishy . . . .. ....

[Relentless]

>>And gee I wonder what message they are sending Jenny who is buried in like 15th or 16th? Does Callahan hear that one or does he need a hearing aid?>>>>

LOL...great post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[neneth]

What message Japanese federation sending to Callahan.

[chipso1]

Oh, and sorry Charming Rose. I feel bad that i kinda freaked out. this day has been so stressful with so many emotions around here, that i feel like crying.:( I know that the world will go on and i don't care about the placements anymore.

F THE JUDGES AND HOFFMAN!!!!!!! Michelle will come back in the freeskate and will be fired up for next season!:RP

[Darkchilde11201]

Never mind. I'm sick of discussing this shameless fiasco. I think we should just go ahead and allow a few misguided individuals to further destroy the already shaky credibility of this sport because by the actions of a few "loose cannons," what is being shown to me is that they don't care. And when it's all said and done, why the $%^& should I?

I, for one, have had enough.

[Joanna31]

If, as CharmingRose says, MK has "perfect technique," then explain to me WHY (even BEFORE the deductions were taken) her tech scores from some of the judges were so low in relation to the Japanese skaters, who both had more difficult combos but "not so perfect technique."

Why were her scores low? Frankly, I don't know and I don't care. I'm over that now. It's not a big deal to me. The past is the past. The reason why I was praising her post was she said what I've been preaching all this time: Michelle NEEDS TO DO THE 3/3s to WIN!

Figure skating is changing and becoming more a sport than a presentation. Michy-poo can't be "left behind in the dust" (thank you Frank!) and she needs to catch up. If that's what the judges were trying to get across to her, I think it would have been better if they did it on paper, than through scores.

[kwanette]

I really don't think RC was saying MK should retire...but he is a smart guy...and probably has heard some "rumblings" and is passing it on...

[egskater0003]

Kwanette I agree with you

I really don't think RC was saying MK should retire...but he is a smart guy...and probably has heard some "rumblings" and is passing it on...

why always targeting michelle just because she's just so much better than the rest.

[cupacopy]

There was something in Christine Brennan's last article that might apply here. I remember her saying something about Ottavio Cinquanta asserting his authority over the ISU and something about strong-arming some people. Could this situation be some sort of message from him to the American viewing public, or the fans, that he has the power to hold down America's top skating draw if the television contracts are cut?

I'm just thinking about possible explanations, if there are any...what do you guys think?

[Pather2000]

I hate to say this( It may be true or not) but, I think they are sending a message to move on already. She had been around for 10 years already. & Just about 9 of those years in the very top of the pile. Her various titles over the years from every competition & Various medals I can't even count anymore. & His second remark about how rich she is is true( even though he was joking when he said it) But, true. Outside of the US Other skaters & coaches see her as the Rich American. Win Loose or draw Michelle still gets the deals. She Won The Bronze Medal in SLC & Still was # 1 when it came to endorsements. Even over the Gold Medal Winner of Sarah. Disney signed Michelle, Not the # 1 person. Even Jamie & David( Canadian Pair) made a little snide comment about it. They were hoping to cash in big with their gold medal. You know there has to be jealousy there when a person is so successful for so long( Look A My New York Yankees. They are called the evil Empire, Yeah Right). I do belive that they do want knew blood. Alexei was forced to retire( do to his injuries & his own federation forced him out). Irina is ill , Plushenko is a question mark ( His Knees, who know if he will be able to come back after his surgey. With out the surgery he won't last to 2006) There are your top skaters who have been around for a very long time. & those who were winning everything.

Richard C. said it in a joking manner. But, he was dead serious. Make no mistake about that. He knows that community better than anyone on any skating boards.


Wishing Michelle Luck.


LONG LIVE THE QUEEN MICHELLE:

[neneth]

If ISU want here to retire then that will be the end of skating for me.NO more $$$ for ISU.I think age shouls not be a base in skating.As long as you can do it it fine.There are so many ladies with the same age as Michlle and older.If that is the base then ISU should create a competition for that age.Put a age limit for elite skater.Like 14-19 and when you over 19 you should compete with the ladies who are 20 - 30 yrs ols.And the should called this competition as Senoir Elite.Which is more classy on.I'm sure the rating will be high and ISU will make more money.GEEZZZZZZZZZZZZ it all about money.:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

[mano]

So, they're sending a signal to MK.
That is really going to do a lot for the credibility of the sport. Hey skater x, we do not like your lack of 3/3s so we will mark you below 2 skaters who had it but then award another skater without 3/3s above those other two skaters because she had fire and can touch her head to her knee, whoopee. There is a disconnect here.

Next time these judges want to send a message, just send an email. Using the marks to send a signal means they are not basing scores on how the skater skated, but on what they want. Where is the fairness in that? BTW, Sasha has said she will not be planning any 3/3s for the LP which is exactly the same thing Michelle has said...so what has the 3/3s got to do with it? Sasha did not have any 3/3s throughout the season either. Why are they not sending her signals?

Kwanette! ROTFLOL!

[egskater0003]

you know, that could be it too. Unfortunately, it's all turning into politics and the skaters are just innocently getting caught up in the middle.

[Darkchilde11201]

[[Why were her scores low? Frankly, I don't know and I don't care.]]

Fair answer, Joanna31. I respect that.

But please try to understand where I'm coming from: It makes no sense to say MK NEEDS the triple-triples to WIN, when in fact she has NOT needed them to win other major competitions, even when other competitors successfully performed them.

And lest you think I am being obnoxiously bull-headed about this, I would like to AGAIN bring your attention to the fact that the CURRENT LEADER has not had to complete triple-triple combinations to attain her 1st place position.

Hence, the argument for the triple-triples just DOES NOT fly with me.

That is my whole point.

[ICEDIVA]

ita kwanette

Plus, he also made the comment about them not wanting to make another American richer. I don't think that those were Richard C.'s opinion. He has said in the past and even last year that he is impressed how Michelle seems to get stronger year after year and also about her longetivity in the sport.

[crazysoul80]

Do you think it hurt Michelle a great deal skating after Miki when Miki completed her 3/3?

[sunnybunny]

Darkchilde - maybe it will take a 3/3 to beat a clean Sasha! Let's face it, artistically, they will give the nod to Sasha - if she's clean. Then it's all about technical. I tend to agree that MK needs a 3/3 to win - at least to win if others are clean.

[egskater0003]

She Won The Bronze Medal in SLC & Still was # 1 when it came to endorsements. Even over the Gold Medal Winner of Sarah. Disney signed Michelle, Not the # 1 person. Even Jamie & David( Canadian Pair) made a little snide comment about it. They were hoping to cash in big with their gold medal. You know there has to be jealousy there when a person is so successful for so long

Funny you mentioned this because it just got me thinking that after this worlds, Michelle will still come out on top and take all the glory even if she doesn't get the world title. ISU might think they're dethroning her but in fact this fiasco will be working in Kwan's favor. She'll come out American's golden girl once again.

As for endorsments, Kwan = $$$, like that's so hard to see. Plus she does have very good PR and the people using her for endorsments know they can count on Kwan representing without screwing up.

[mano]

I have a feeling that if the judges were intent on sending a signal to Michelle, then Miki could have fallen and probably gotten a 6.0.:rolleyes

[RA5CViggie]

Some knowledgeable fan please answer me this.

If the message the judges are sending is "anti-rich American without a 3/3", then why is a rich American without a 3/3 in first place right now?

[GinnySmith]

She has done the 3/3's before...why isn't she doing them now? Because she's become comfortable. She's been able to get by with other people's mistakes, and not do 3/3's. This Worlds has caught up to her, and she has GOT to do the 3/3's.Help me out here. Why is it that only Michelle has to do the 3/3s? IIRC, Michelle has actually done more 3/3s in major comps than Sasha. So why is Sasha getting such high marks without 3/3 and Michelle MUST do 3/3s? This does not compute. Sorry....:rolleyes

[TripleAxela]

<<Triple, my understanding is that the judges gave their marks, and then the ref did his deduction.>>

If that is the case, it goes against the rules and protocol. A referee does not have the authority to mark or to deduct, only to officiate over the event and inform the judges of various issues, such as time, etc.

<<But that alone would be a violation of the rules, because the ref is to blow the whistle at the time of the violation, and apparently he didn't.>>

You know what's weird is that in a lot of competitions I have judged, skaters have gone over the time limit and while we as judges were informed, the ref did not blow the whistle. And I always wanted to take it upon myself to go tell the skater he/she was over because, without the whistle, how would the skater know? The skater would just keep competing and keep getting deductions w/o having been informed he/she was over. So I don't know what the deal is with the whistle, I just know that refs don't always blow it when they are supposed to.

This is all very odd. :(

[Darkchilde11201]

Hey, SunnyBunny....

Yeah. I hear ya. And that is a very real possibility but certainly not a necessity. A 7th triple could possibly hold off a clean 6-triple SC program. But regardless, I think an MK who is on FIRE like at 2004 US Nats cannot be touched. At all. But I do hear you.

[crazysoul80]

Good point RA5! Yet one big difference is that Michelle is a 5-time World Champion. Sasha has no world medal....yet.

[Crizzy]

If Michelle continue to get big endorsements than others then good for her!!! It's about time figure skaters get big-money endorsements, they work just as hard as a football player. So when Disney approach her to renew her contract or other sponsors, should Michelle say "oh just give it to the one who won gold!!" IF there is jealousy amongst other figure skaters because of Michelle's bank account well too bad. It just means that MK is more sellable and marketable.:SS

[hate2sk8]

Wouldn't the qualifying marks have something to do with Mk's overall placement? I'm not sure about QR skates, but weren't Miki and Shizuka clean? If so, that could be playing a major role in why MK is in 4th, even if she was better than the Japanese in the short. I do agree with the posters saying that MK needs to push herself. There are a number of skaters coming up with triple/triples (and a couple with quads) in their arsenal. Michelle is beautiful, she has very good technique, but she has to really push again. It's hard when you see someone that good, who used to attempt the 3/3, going by on 3/2 when we all feel she is capable of more. Michelle does have the most solid background of all the skaters, but it's not the legend that wins, it's the skater. Michelle does have beautiful artistry, and she deserves great marks there, nobody is disputing that. However, her technical marks do need some improvement as far as going for more difficult programs goes. I will agree that Michelle's programs seem similar at times. I love most of her shorts, and they are typically different and unique, and I think that TFB was really different and refreshing for her. I like Tosca okay, but her longs seem to have a similar layout. MK is not by any means the only skater with this problem, but it is something she could work on imo. It isn't fair to mark her down for this, if that was in fact the case, but plenty of skaters have gotten unfair marks like these in the past, but it isn't given attention unless their is a name like Michelle Kwan involved. So, I guess what I am trying to say is that Michelle is facing some of the roughest competition that she has been up against in a while. If she wants to win, I think she is going to need the 3/3 in the long.

[crazysoul80]

What gave the ref the authority then to deduct the points when he had no right to????????

Why didn't the judges make the call if it was so important???????

[CharmingRose]

I thank Joanna31 for realizing what I was saying about Michelle and the 3/3's! :)

As for Sasha being in first (Darkchilde) with no 3/3...did you see Sasha's SP at Nationals? If she skated it just as well, if not better (and better from reports), why in the world wouldn't she be in first? But, it doesn't sound like MK's performance was one of her best. I read it was slow, cautious, etc. So, if Michelle had no fire, spark, like she usually has...plus NO 3/3 and Shizuka and Miki did...why couldn't she place behind them? Sasha had the other goods, fire, spark, etc...to back up not having the 3/3.

If MK skates her LP like she did at Nationals, or better, even WITHOUT a 3/3...I can see her winning the LP. *BUT*, if Miki and Shizuka have great artistic LP's, WITH 3/3's...Michelle would deserve to place behind them. Right along with Sasha (if her LP is lackluster and boring). And I do believe Robin and Sasha know that in the future, she is going to need those 3/3's and quads. They have said it more than once. I hope I made myself clear on this issue.

It's all right Chipso1, I probably shouldn't have been so rude myself. :)

**Edited to add** If it turns out tomorrow that MK was indeed robbed and deserved to be second, I will have no problem coming back and admitting it!

[JarJarBinks88]

NOT SO "CHARMING" TODAY ARE U, "CHARMINGROSE"! We know there are other skaters out there, and I too have been a fan of figure skating before MK became a world class skater. The controversy here is that the ISU has been under the gun about "fair" judging. If the ISU does not show fair judging, the sport of figure skating will, without a doubt loose me and others as supporters/fans of figure skating.

In otherwords, if this controversy causes MK to hang skates up, I WILL hang my skates up too. I'm sure others will loose faith in figure skating as a whole. :RP

[sunnybunny]

DarkChilde - you bring up an excellent point - just a 7th triple could be enough at this point and time to edge out Sasha on tech. - I would love to see Michelle have 7 triples tomorrow - just something to give her more tech. merit. even if she ends up with no shot at the gold.

[Beth2000]

if I read that article correctly it also said that Sasha didn't do a 3/3. So, why would they expect MK to do a 3/3 but not Sasha?

Something smells fishy to me. Since when do you need a 3/3 in the Short program?

[neneth]

With or without medal I just hope that Michelle will be judge fairly tomorrow.

[hate2sk8]

BTW, I'm not upset about MK doing 3/2 in the short. Sure, I'd love to see it, but it's not the most important. The thing for me is I think she needs to attempt it in the long, along with Sasha. But, at the same time, I think people expect more out of Mk because thus far she has proven herself in competition more than Sasha has. Before Sasha can be expected to pull of 3/3 consistently in comps, she has to get a hold of her nerves. Michelle, on the other hand, has proven her mental and physical strength time and time again, so the 3/3 is where she could push. I think it could be very possible that Sasha would need a 3/3 for the long to win. If the Japanese ladies skate poorly, MK and Sasha probably won't need a 3/3, but with time the combos will become more commonplace, and I think that if Mk wants to stick around until 2006, she should start pushing now. I know that Michelle can do the 3/3, and I'd love to see her prove it. All I'm saying is that it's time for the women to push the technical merit marks. Over the years, the ladies have brought a dramatic improvement to the artistry of the sport, so I just think it would be wonderful to see 3/3. I just think that where much is given, much is expected concerning Michelle. I wish that she, and Sasha, would attempt 3/3 in the long.

[mano]

From article by Phil Hersh:

Kwan's error-free short program earned only fourth place behind those of teammate Sasha Cohen, a decisive winner, and Japan's Shizuka Arakawa and Miki Ando, whose positions were more debatable.

and from the same article:

Arakawa, 22, and Ando, 16, tried to distinguish themselves with triple-triples, compared to triple-doubles for Kwan and Cohen. Neither Japanese woman deserved full credit for the execution.

Replays showed Arakawa well short of three revolutions on her second jump and a little short on the first. Ando also was slightly short on the second.

A question about the under-rotated jumps brought a cat-swallowed-the-canary smile from Arakawa.

"I think it was a little under-rotated, but I felt good about what I did," she said.

Each Japanese skater got mostly 5.8s for technical merit and generous presentation marks, especially Ando. She is an enormous talent with the relatively callow presentation skills of most

[CharmingRose]

JarJar...please. I will be the FIRST to complain about the unfair judging in this sport. I am a competitive figure skater myself, with a competition coming up this weekend. I know how it is, and have considered hanging up my own skates because of frustration with biased judging.

Which is what I said in my other post...if MK was robbed and deserved to be higher, I will be the first one to admit it!

The problem I had earlier was that, it just seemed like it was an "absurd" idea that MK could EVER place behind another skater. When, in fact, it isn't at all. I could completely see MK placing behind Sasha and Shizuka. I don't know about Miki, but definitely the other two.

[RA5CViggie]

Wouldn't the qualifying marks have something to do with Mk's overall placement? I'm not sure about QR skates, but weren't Miki and Shizuka clean? If so, that could be playing a major role in why MK is in 4th, even if she was better than the Japanese in the short.
By that logic, MK should be a two-time Olympic champion, Nancy Kerrigan should be an Olympic Champion as well. They both outskated the eventual winners in the short program, why didn't the judges carry it into the long program?

[Beth2000]

Pather, the problem there is if Michelle moves on there goes Figure Skating.

To be honest once Michelle decides to retire from the sport I won't be watching figure skating anymore. There isn't anyone that draws me in. There is figure skater's and then there is Michelle Kwan.

Basically, they are shooting themselves in the foot by trying to get Michelle to leave the sport.

[Darkchilde11201]

CharmingRose, I think you're missing my point entirely, so I won't belabor the issue. But just to put all of this into perspective, if not for the deductions, MK would be in 2nd place right now. The Japanese skaters are not ahead of her because SHE DID NOT PERFORM A TRIPLE-TRIPLE! They are ahead of MK because of the so-called TIME DEDUCTIONS.

Okay. Now, I'm through.

[Beth2000]

Who are you calling Jarjar?

[neneth]

Me too I will not watch figure skating if Michelle hang her skates.Maybe we should send message to ISU.That Michelle is the only person why we watch figure skating.

[CharmingRose]

No, I get your point. But wonder if the time deductions are right? Wonder if her music really did go over? Then what will you say?

If it didn't, then she deserves to be second.

[crazysoul80]

Then what does that say about other skaters who went over???

Or even Arakawa and Ando who cheated on their 3/3s???????? They didn't deserve their placements and they know that.

[CharmingRose]

What does it say? I don't know. You tell me, since as far as I can tell, no one was accused of going over their music except Michelle.

Do they know that? Probably not. I bet they think they deserved their placements.

Look, the point is (including me) none of us have REALLY seen the SP's. We don't know who deserved what yet.

[hate2sk8]

RA5 or whatever: I don't understand your logic. Could you explain?

[crazysoul80]

No that's my point. Michelle has been the first skater I've seen that's being penalized when there's been plenty of other skaters who have made that mistake if Michelle hasn't! If the ISU is such a stickler for rules, why all of a sudden are they enforcing it NOW?????????

I think Arakawa is very aware of it. Take a look at the article. She knows she cheated on her 3/3.

Actually a lot of people here have already seen the short and they evidently think Michelle was scored unfairly. I mean a 5.1 for technical???? C'mon now. That is just ridiculous.

[Krista]

Everyone notice how much buzz was created by this controversy? I smell a ploy by the ISU to get more attention to skating and get more money. Thats all I have to say about that.......8o

[Ogre Mage]

I don't think the message is that the judges want MK to retire. She is the premiere ladies skater and a huge draw. But now, for two seasons in a row she has refused to jump the the hoops of the GP. I believe this may have resulted in two things:

1. Michelle was not getting feedback throughout the season from international judges by which to tweak her program. Sasha and Shizuka did the GP, got plenty of feedback from the international judges and adjusted accordingly. This undoubtedly gave them an advantage.

2. The ISU flat out does not like MK skipping the GP because they lose out in the ratings if she is not there. Perhaps this is their way of telling her that she no longer gets to "pass." A pretty nasty political move, but oh so how like $peedy and co. :x

I think next year it would behoove Michelle to tap dance through the GP and tweak her program based on the judges' feedback.

[crazysoul80]

You really think they resent Michelle not going to the GP? Not saying I disagree but I'm sooo disgusted with the ISU already.

[egskater0003]

CharmingRose
I've seen Mk's short along with Miki's and Shizuka's and MK definately should be placed higher than those two despite the 3/3's. If it's all a technical issue,then why not just place costner above MK and SC too? Coster did a 3/3 combo and presentation was okay.

Anyway, it's all personal preference I guess.

[Debbie]

There are 2 issues here. One is whether MK really deserved her deductions or not - in other words, did she really go over the time limit (note that the Phil Hersh article says the rule is "rarely enforced at the elite level"). The 2nd issue is the judging of Ando and Arakawa - they deserved deductions that were not taken. As Hersh pointed out, both of their combos were cheated (which is what the Eurosport commentators said this morning), plus there was Arakawa's camel spin that was short on revolutions. The way I see it, Arakawa deserved about 0.4 or 0.5 deducted off the req. elements mark and judges gave her 5.7s and 5.8s - which would mean the scale is based on about a 6.2 or 6.3 - which isn't the case, at least this week, although with all the 6.0s being given out, I have to wonder.

[Terri]

I too wonder why they are only "sending a message" to Michelle. Sasha has backed off of her technical and choreographic difficulty the past two seasons. No longer is she trying quads or 3/3's as she has in the past, heck she's not even attempting 7 triples or all jumps. She's doing 6 jumps with no loop. I'm sure Michelle could breathe a little easier if she canned her loop.

[Ogre Mage]

You really think they resent Michelle not going to the GP? Not saying I disagree but I'm sooo disgusted with the ISU already

Given that Sasha, Shizuka and Miki all did the GP, it would be the logical assumption. Although Sasha deserved her placements outright. This is not an "eville eastern bloc" thing since the USA and Japan are allies in the ISU. It's not a 3/3 thing either, since Sasha is in 1st without one.

Remember in 2003 when it looked like Michelle was going to going to qualify for the GPF based on her emergency fill-in at SA? $peedy was insistent about her going to the GPF. Last year, though, The Powers That Be may have been a little more understanding because it was a post-Olympic year and MK needed a break after a tough 2002.

But to skip 2 years in a row was a snub the ISU was not going to overlook. Admittedly, there is the legitimate issue that Kwan has not honed her program based on the feedback of ISU judges. And Michelle unfortunately left herself vulnerable because of her poor QR skate.

Politics aside, I hope she has a great skate in the LP. I was always most proud of her when she was fighting back from failure.

[SpecialMK]

have told the referee to look for ANYTHING to keep Kwan's marks down to punish her for not giving her soul this year to the ISU? I did read that he was NOT happy wit her decision to not compete in the GPF!!! I don't put anything past Speedy and the control he probably has over people.Don't kid yourself if you think this kind of stuff doen't go on in skating either... GO MICHELLE! I also hope Sasha realizes why she is so far ahead of Michelle and she should be thanking her lucky stars because it isn't because her talent is all that over Michelle's!!

[JarJarBinks88]

Charming Rose...

I think her SP is here

www.fastweb.it/streaming/raisport.asx

[LuvMK]

Oh charmingrose, there are a lot of other skaters, many of whom would give anything to be able to skate the way Michelle does, or failing that at least be able to display the consistency and competitive fire that she has shown throughout her career.

Of course figure skating has a lot of skaters, otherwise it couldn't exist as a sport. There are people who truly understand Michelle, her skating and what she has meant to the sport, and there are those who seem nonplused or just pissed and put off by the phenomenon of it all, and by her huge fan base. She has touched people who have been fans of the sport for years, and she has brought new fans to the sport, just by her skating, by her courage and heart. She has been the first one to look at her skating and point out areas where she wants to improve, and that is what has made her an eight-time National Champion, five-time World champion and two-time Olympic medalist. She may not be the one who jumps the highest or has the most flexibility, but her consistency, courage, heart, graceful arms and pure technique, combined with the essence of the person she is have made her a legend in her own time. The enormity of it is just too much for some people. They want the focus to be on other skaters, many of who have improved over the years, or grown up over the years learning from the example of a champion skater and extraordinary human being, Michelle Kwan!

You know what charmingrose, Michelle Kwan is not sitting around worrying about what fans or critics think of her. She's not contemplating her past medals or her great influence on the sport. She's an athlete preparing herself to skate in a tough competition. She knows who she is, she knows her body and what it can do. She knows her heart, and she needs no advice from you, or from any of us.

Michelle doesn't live and breathe through her fans. The skater and person that Michelle has been over the years though has meant a lot to a lot of people, and her skating and love for her skating and the person she is, has brought people together who have formed life long friendships. In this world, that is such a positive thing.

No one is perfect, and if you really understood Michelle or frequented this board, you would understand that we here are all individuals united by our love for Michelle, and we often debate and discuss her performances, the magic she displays as well as what she might need to do to improve. ONce again, its all part of the fun of coming to this board to chat. Michelle doesn't need our advice.

BTW, what makes you come here anyway, because you too are a fan, really? Or just a curiosity seeker? Or a judgment tweaker?

No dis charming, just the facts IMO. You shouldn't come here to dis and lump us together.

On a lighter note, are you any relation to Wild Irish Rose?

:TOS

[SkateWorlds1]

I said this in the "Michelle" thread and I will say it here. Both Sasha and Michelle will have to do 3/3's next year. Sasha got away with no 3/3 's this time because she is an incredible spinner. That won't help her next year. If the judges want to see 3/3 attempts even if they are not fully rotated, then that is what must take place. We don't have to like it but like it or not the 3/3 is here to stay.

[ColinCreevyMK]

i'm a longtime lurker here, and all of this mess has just prompted me to post!!! first off, i don't see any possible way that sasha cohen can beat michelle kwan when michelle lands everything and skates to tfb!!! sasha's jumps are too weak, her landings are shaky, her spins are fine, her spirals are fine, but there is no edge, and her edge quality in footwork is nothing to get excited about!!! and shizuka is just okay!! look at her costume!!! forget about music times, take off 3 points for that hideous dress! why would junior world champ beat mk? her 3/3 is way overrated! there is no way that a 3/3 can be as valuable as michelle's artistry!! michelle is perfect textbook skating! her spins have great positions, and no matter what anyone says, she spins just as fast as anyone else! her jumps are so eezy and breezy, her spiral is perfect, and it doesn't look like a weird circus person stretching, and she has a spark that nobody can deny! this is just wrong! forget petitioning, file a lawsuit! this is just ridiculous!

Hate2sk8: i don't c how u think you have room to talk about michelle when you don't even love skating!!! it takes a person who loves skating to recognize pure joy of it when a skater is on the ice (in particular MICHELLLE!) nobody can do that like our beloved!

CharmingRose: you seem more like poison ivy to me than a pretty rose!!!! there are other skaters out there, maybe, but that doesn't mean they live up 2 the standard!!!! since when has michelle needed the 3/3!! she doesn't deserve any of this scrutiny!! she is so polished, and has a lot more class than you or hate2sk8 or anyone else who poses as an MK fan and then picks her apart behind her back!! mk is 23598723489 times the skater and person than any of those little twits who are in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, could ever wish to be! michelle is nothing but pure talent, kindness, generosity, sweetness, determination, inspiration, greatness, legend, heart, grace, encouragement, beauty, style, perseverance, courage, charm, intelligence, the list goes on!!! mk could win this worlds skating on her hands! and that is that!!!!!!

i am gonna go have some chocolate or asprin or something!! the tears have been falling all day!!! wish michelle luck!!!

Sent to us like a skating savior
You step upon the ice, angelically glowing:angel
Dancing to the hallelujah chorus :FL
your greatness you are ever-showing

2004 world champ no matta what! MK!!!!!!!!!

[shanilia]

If Mr. Callaghan is implying that the Judges want to see Michelle move on, then I would challenge the federation on age discrimination. No one sent signals to Maria B. when she was skating. But Maria wasn't winning everything in sight like Michelle has. Every time Michelle was in a competition, she got the loudest cheers and she won those competitions. She always got the most attention and everyone else was pushed to the background. Which brings to the theory that the judges are tired of seeing Michelle on the front of the map all the time, hence the low scores and they want to show Michelle to the door.

It's too bad this is happening to Michelle because it's not her fault. She does her best, and her best happens to win all the time. She's not forcing the judges to give her golds. She earns them.

[shanilia]

hate to say this( It may be true or not) but, I think they are sending a message to move on already. She had been around for 10 years already. & Just about 9 of those years in the very top of the pile. Her various titles over the years from every competition & Various medals I can't even count anymore. Yes, this is what I was trying to say: the 10 years.

[savvysearch]

If someone manages to stay on for ten years that should be commended. Figure Skating on a whole needs to reinvent itself instead of telling skaters that reinvention is their job. They want people in for four years and then leave. Sports that are revered have athletes that are there for the long run.

[SkateWorlds1]

Colin C.- lol- chocolate and asprin? I'm sorry, I'm not making fun but that was so funny, and your right about Sasha's dress, it's not the right color for her.:rollin

[ColinCreevyMK]

:D !!! i was checking up on this thread, and i was hiding my eyes from any threads that gave away the long. haha. i'm going unspoiled again, even though i know mk will be the best as usual. even if she doesn't get the gold medal, i know she'll have the golden long!!

p.s. i decided to go with the chocolate. it tastes a lot better. hehe

here's an mk cheer for anyone at worlds!!!

Michelle Kwan! Michelle Kwan!
All the other skaters make me wanna yawn
She's our best! she's our best!
she's proved it over and over, so what's to test?!
Skate Great! Skate Great!
Gold in '06 is her fate!
She's still around! She's still around!
you can't kick her to the ground
the '04 judges are the worst!
anyone with eyes knows mk deserves FIRST!!!!!

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!
MK is going to rock!!!!! Germany's about to be Kwanified!!!!!