disappointment with fellow forum members [Archive]

i12gosk8

October 25th, 2003, 06:47 AM

The Michelle Kwan forum, a place where skating fans of Michelle's can communicate with others in a friendly way.....as of late seems to have turned into the lets bash sasha site.

I think its pretty sad, with all the misquotes, and statements which could actually be considered sladerous if a skater like Sasha logged on here and read some of the stuff......MK forum could be shut down.

And Im pretty sure despite what I am saying that I will probably be bashed myself for posting this by another forum member.

Bummer cause this is a great site to get information and results on skating, I know that is the main reason I log on here. I love skating, competed and now coach, happened to train with Michelle, love her to death, and she is my fav. skater, but I also like other skaters, and also like to see Michelle have competition. Its always more exciting when all the skaters skate great, and the wins are more significant.

IE 1996 worlds, beating Lu Chen with 6.0's, 2000 worlds, coming from 3rd to beat Slutskaya and Butryskaya.

honey827

October 25th, 2003, 06:52 AM

I am not trying to attack you so just bare with me I just don't understand what you are you talking about not everyone has to like Sasha's skating they have that right and this is not a Sasha fan board so obviously the perspective would be different. Anyway I haven't read anything that would be considered slanderous so you would have to be more specific I have read people saying Sasha is talented but she has her flaws just like everyone else. Also I suggest you read Sasha's own board before you start saying that Sasha is bashed here. How about that nice poster MichellefellKwan4bronze. I think sometimes fans of skaters can take things a little too personally or misunderstand things that weren't meant to be offensive.

Beth2000

October 25th, 2003, 06:53 AM

I am not going to bash you period.

I have said in several places when people have claimed that Michelle does the same old, same old skating. I have said every skater has their flaws and their strengths.

Sasha skated great at SA and Michelle didn't do as bad as I had read. Sasha was more prepared b/c Sasha will be competing in the GP circuit. Michelle isn't.

I see both of these skater's has their flaws and their strengths. If you are a big fan of Michelle you will see all of her strengths and only some of her flaws. If you are a big fan of Sasha you will see of her strengths and only some of her flaws.

I hope this makes sense.

nits

October 25th, 2003, 07:03 AM

If you want Sasha praise, I suggest you go to Sashafans. I hear this is a great place to discuss Sasha and ONLY Sasha. Warning: you might be disappointed in some things you read about Kwan.
I don't see alot of Sasha bashing on this forum. I don't understand where your post is coming from. People may be critical of her skating at times, but Michelle faces this same criticism every time she steps on the ice, as does every other skater out there.

peachstatesk8er

October 25th, 2003, 07:03 AM

I just say to myself that whoever is the closest threat is not going to be liked by the rival's fans. If Jenny or AP get too close to Michelle then there will be a sudden anti-Jenny/AP movement. Too bad people can't just be fans of skating and root for everyone to do well. ;)

sk8cynic

October 25th, 2003, 07:07 AM

Honey, I don't think this poster was saying that people here have no right to criticize Sasha's skating. She, like every other skater out there, certainly has aspects to her skating that need improvement. Her skating style isn't going to impress every one. I don't expect people her to like or love her.

It just seems that there are certain people from this forum who seize any and every opportunity they see to get their digs in and voice what comes across as hatred.

As for telling the person who started this thread to go find a Sasha-friendly forum, I guess here's the real question:

Is MKF supposed to be a forum that welcomes those fans who love Michelle and Michelle only? Or is it supposed to be a forum that welcomes fans not just Michelle, but of other skaters? Is MKF supposed to be a forum that allows constructive criticism of ALL skaters, or is it one that only accepts complete and utter devotion to one? As it's been pointed out, this is a discussion board, and differences of opinion are what make discussions interesting. I'm just saying that it's possible to be criticial AND respectful at the same time. It seems to me that ideology should be applied to all skaters mentioned here, not just to the one that this forum is dedicated to.

Before you tell me the same thing you said to the person that started this thread, namely that I need to go find a Sasha-friendly board, I just want you to know that I feel the same way about a certain Sasha board that engages in the same type of behavior. I think this same point needs to be raised over there as well.

If posters care to bash and slam other skaters, there are plenty of boards designed just for this purpose. Why not keep MKF a place that Michelle would be proud of instead of possibly giving cause for consternation?

fanforever

October 25th, 2003, 07:21 AM

Sasha's program was awesome! She has loads of talent, including that WOW factor in her spiral. I am not going to forget it for some time now! Michelle, don't worry about her. I personally love the tune from "Tosca" and I think it works well for her too. Michelle is very dramatic and yet beautiful in her skating style. I hope she does well in December, and at Nationals and Worlds, as with Sasha. I'll just keep watching and cheering for them! :angel

redvispa

October 25th, 2003, 07:43 AM

I think its pretty sad, with all the misquotes, and statements which could actually be considered sladerous if a skater like Sasha logged on here and read some of the stuff......MK forum could be shut down.

This forum is not going anywhere, trust me. Even if Sasha were to come in here and dislike what she reads I doubt there would be a case. Mainly because a forum is a place where everyone can discuss their opinions and no one here is claiming that what is said here is fact. And as for the slanderous material here, where exactly are you seeing this? If anything this is the one forum where such behaviour really is controlled by the administrators. And the bashing is not quite as rampant as THE other forum that came to mind immediately after reading your post. I understand that it feels terrible when a fan of another skater comes in and reads critisism about their favorite skaters. In particular since this forum tends to be more critical than praising of Sasha. But as a Michelle Kwan forum, I think it would be natural to expect that most of the posters will love Michelle, and not be quite as keen on her competitors. There was a prior poster who directed someone here to a Sasha friendly board and I don't think that should be taken as an insult. It just seems to me that if you are that uncomfortible with what you are reading in this forum, then it makes no sense to continue to visit the board. I think the majority of the posts here are friendly and polite and I know for a fact that the majority of the members on this board are wonderful respectful individuals.

peachstatesk8er

October 25th, 2003, 07:44 AM

And the bashing is not quite as rampant as THE other forum that came to mind immediately after reading your post.

Oh yeah, go there with the board dragging...that'll win you some serious points! NOT! :hat

redvispa

October 25th, 2003, 07:46 AM

Oh yeah, go there with the board dragging...that'll win you some serious points! NOT!

whaterver dude....!
It's nice to see you read my entire post and got only THAT out of it.

NikkiFinn

October 25th, 2003, 08:01 AM

This is so ridiculous. Of course Michelle fans will be partial to Michelle.
As for being slander, I have heard remarks about Sasha's skating or her costume, but nothing about HER personally. It's not like people are getting away with calling Sasha a slut or murderer.
And of course you're going to see people nitpicking Sasha. Especially when people start threads like "Who is better, Michelle or Sasha?" or "What would win, perfect Tosca vs perfect Swan Lake?". Serious Michelle fans want Michelle to win and they're going to give reasons why Michelle would beat Sasha. Some of the things may not be liked so much by Sasha's fans, but that's the way it is.
I don't think we should bash skaters, but I'm no idealist either and I know that we'll never get rid of nitpicking and criticism of Michelle's rivals. Just like we'll never get all the Michelle-haters to magically turn into Michelle fans.

Shiprock

October 25th, 2003, 08:44 AM

Being more of a lurker than a poster, I read a lot of posters opinions here and I have learned a lot from a lot of the opinions/constructive critisicisms of skating styles and so forth of each women skaters. They are usually right on, too! I agree this is an MK Forum and so far most of the comments/analysis of women skaters are within the boundaries of decorum.

mommy2

October 25th, 2003, 09:33 AM

I'm going to sound like Jan Brady here but it seems that when I come to the Michelle KWAN Forum all I read about lately is Sasha, Sasha, Sasha!

If I wanted to read and gloat about Sasha I'd go to a Sasha Forum. I come here to talk about MICHELLE! I am a Michelle Fan through and through--but there are other ladies I cheer for--Angela, JENNY, and Amber--Sasha is just not one of my favs.

I have been offended for Michelle by some of the posts regarding her Tosca program. I have to remind myself that this is a discussion board--so be prepared for the good, the bad and the ugly. If you can't check your over sensitivity at the door I recommend that you go somewhere else.

Please note that I do not condone bashing--which I might mention, goes on very little here. The think the moderators do a fab job!

hate2sk8

October 25th, 2003, 09:56 AM

I think the reason why Sasha seems to be getting more attention on this board than she has in the past is because she is gaining more attention in skating. In my opinion, Sasha is the one in the spotlight, and she is going to be under the critical eye because of that. I would even venture to say that Sasha is under the critical eye more than MK because MK is taking it easy now. She isn't doing GP events, she is only doing Nationals and Worlds. When MK didn't win gold she was under terrible criticism, because she was considered the best. I think they are both great skaters, and I don't really have a preference. I understand the first post, and I think it is unfortunate that skaters and all athletes are held under great amounts of criticism, but I don't think this board is slamming Sasha. Sasha is a great skater, and wether we like her or not, we all can admit that she is talented. I think many people here intend on creating constructive criticism. Like I said, everyone on here knows that Sasha is a great skater.

jlta

October 25th, 2003, 09:56 AM

I have never seen any Sasha bashing here. Sure we have talked about her lack of inconsistency, but who doesn't. (Did you read the latest Hersch article?) Yes we discuss her plunging necklines! But we also discuss Michelle's weaknesses as well. I have to admit I am not much of a Sasha fan, but I have learned over the past 11/2 years from posters on this board, how to appreciate what she does. I enjoy watching her skate. I enjoyed her new lp. and most of all I really enjoyed watching her At COI this past spring. I would rather watch Michelle, but I will also watch and apprecitate the talent in Sasha....

Terri

October 25th, 2003, 10:54 AM

I agree with Nikki that this is ridiculous. This forum is not going to be shut down and it has not turned into a Sasha bashing site. Saying that another skater has superior skating skills to Sasha is not a bash btw, but an assessment.

This is a forum of people with very different views and people are going to disagree, this is not a place for people to come only to agree with or say what you think is appropiate. And yes, it's a forum for Michelle fans first and foremost though I think this a forum that's been very welcoming to fans of other skaters. Sorry that you disagree.

GinnySmith

October 25th, 2003, 10:55 AM

I have not read every post in every thread in Spoilers, MK Chat or Skating Chat. Of the comments I have read on Sasha, I do not recall anything that I consider blatant bashing or mean-spirited.

There have been comments questioning her huge lead in the marks for the SP made by some who believe all things being equal in terms of jumps and mistakes, that her basic skating skills are not that much better or possibly not as good as the skaters currently in 2nd & 3rd place. I consider this opinion, not bashing. This is no more bashing than the threads begun by Michelle's own fans stating that Michelle is predictable.

So, I am stumped regarding what you are referring to.

There are clear guidelines stated in the FAQ regarding bashing of skaters and other posters. Therefore, if you believe there are posts here bashing someone, you can post this in the Feedback Section or email the moderators and let them know which posts offend you.

Finally, I believe most of the skating discussions at MKF are full of great information about the sport and typically are respectful of all skaters. We may not hold hands, sing Kumbaya and "show Sasha the love" her fans want us to, but that does not constitute bashing. It is just a statement that we are more Michelle fans than we are Sasha fans. DOH! Big Surprise, huh?

Figure Skating - See:
:SS :TJL :SC :LD :SE :IB :RB :LP

brandelfour

October 25th, 2003, 12:26 PM

sk8, I agree with your post. I have seen posters accused of being trolls, ect on this board. As a Michelle fan, I would think other Michelle fans would not want to behave like members on other boards. It's just not right.

Ashley

October 25th, 2003, 12:27 PM

Well, IMHO, I haven't seen any Sasha bashing. The majority of it all has been well said opinions. There are even debates in the MK Fan chat about Michelle's alleged weaknesses. There is a difference for criticizing someones skating and bashing the skater as a person.

If you see any posts where Sasha, or any skater for that matter, are being bashed and posted about negatively in a personal way, let us know in Forum Feedback. I check it out constantly, and the other moderators do as well.

jxs

October 25th, 2003, 04:55 PM

Count me in as another who hasn't read any bashing here.

shirleyprice1

October 25th, 2003, 06:04 PM

;) :SE :SJ :TJL :MV :FBO :YS :CK :FL :SP :LB :YS :SAL :JP :IB :MV

Way to go, Nits !!!!!!!!!!!11111

TandaCC

October 25th, 2003, 06:57 PM

I believe that anytime the commentators gush over Sasha, (and Sasha wins), they are ensuring some quick protests from loyal fans of Michelle. Probably not a coincidence that the negative comments lately have been about Michelle's nearest rival.

By comparison, there have not been many posts on what the other ladies might be doing wrong including their hairstyles and costumes. I see how praise for Sasha isn't as welcome on a Michelle board, since Sasha could be the next threat for top medals. To be fair, there were comparisons to be made in regards to the outcome at Campbells because it was Sasha who won, but I agree that it seemed like more criticism than usual.

I post here because I've followed Michelle's skating for so long and am thrilled when she wins, not to mention admiring how beautifully she skates whether she wins or not. Others' performances just fall somewhere under enjoying figure skating to me. By the way, I love Michelle's new music and prefer it over violins I think. Hope that comes across as a positive comment.

ritymeez

October 25th, 2003, 08:40 PM

Mommy2, u say that MKF is being overwhelmed with Sasha lately, but I'm wondering as to what section ur looking at (the SPOILERS, the SKATE DISCUSSIONS, or the MICHELLE section), because I don't see anything about Sasha in the Michelle section. Sorry if this sounds rude, but I'm just wondering.

i12gosk8

October 25th, 2003, 08:56 PM

When I originally posted this ad, I expected some differences of opinion, and I knew someone would tell me to go to the "sasha forum" I just knew.....

1. I havent ever logged onto the sasha site, so I dont know why you are telling me to go to it?!
2. I used to take lessons from Frank Carroll, and spent time with Michelle in 1995 and 1996 training, and always liked her lot. I have been a skating fan for a long time, there are several skaters I really like, because I love skating. Michelle happens to be my favorite, but there are several skaters.....women specifically I have liked through the years, Debi Thomas, Katarina Witt, Lu Chen, Midori Ito, Jill Trenary, Michelle Kwan and I really have liked Sasha ever since she came onto the scene in 1999....its doesnt mean Im a Michelle trader or something, it would be like having two children, you love them both.... I dunno this is stupid. There is a difference between criticism and being outright rude. IE: I dont like sasha dress, I dont care for sashas dress VS. I think Sasha should lose a competition because her dress is so ugly, or I hope sasha falls and then michelle will win, which I have seen in threads on here.
3. I was originally turned onto this site by a friend....this is a great site to get results before they are made public.....a forum is a place people share things, I have found this site very useful to get TV schedules, updates on events, and hear different information about skating, which I would not have previously known. I love the fact that people can come on here and trade tapes, which I have benefited from, and also I can try and help a skater I havent even met with my coaching experience through form posts....so dont tell me to go to another site....my god, I trained with Michelle, stayed in the cottage next to her in lake arrowhead, played monopoly with her, and other skaters, saw her salome program being coreographed, skated in benefits for foundation scholarships with her in palm beach...etc etc....I love watching her skate, I am not only a huge fan, but when I saw her at the COI and she gave me a big hug and signed several autographs for me to give to my friends, and took the time to actually talk to me backstage consider her a friend to some degree......Its an honor to have trained with her, and she worked so hard, and has deserved everything shes been awarded in the sport....BUT other skaters work just as hard, and the BAD technique people throw around on this board is very trivial. The skaters that you are talking about are all talented and strong....let me tell you, it takes good tecnique and talent to compete with triple jumps, or even do them.....then to be able to do them under pressure and be consistent is a whole different story. Michelle has set the bar so high, I have never seen a skater more consistent than her, and she has come up with some amazing programs, I just happen to feel the one she skated to tosca wasnt what she was capable of, does that mean Im a TRADER to her?
I thought it was somewhat humorous, and nice gesture to see people who were obvious forum members and fans at the campbells soup classic. People who had self designed t-shirts with michelle on the front and kwan and the back, and banners......these same people rushed to get sashas autograph after her clean skate, should they be told to take off their michelle shirts and exchange them for a sasha shirt, as I was advised not to come on this site?
This is a forum, not a fan club, so it is for anyone who likes skating and michelle, I happen to like both very much.........

redvispa

October 25th, 2003, 10:44 PM

i12gosk8,
next time you find a thread that you find offensive, please refer it to the administrations so that they can remove it. Okay?! I hope this can solve any future problems...thanks

Ogre Mage

October 26th, 2003, 01:22 AM

The moderators here do a good job -- anything which starts to develop into a bash at MKF is usually nipped in the bud. However, there is a minority of posters here who constantly make critical (and only critical) comments about Sasha -- her costume, her program, her skating, her attitude -- whenever her name is brought up. Not actual bashing, but not in very good taste, either.

MKF is better than other places I have seen and I know there's no way to ensure that all criticism is "constructive." But is there a noticeable amount of negativity displayed toward Sasha at MKF? Definitely.

brandelfour

October 26th, 2003, 02:37 AM

It's not in good taste at all, no matter how you look at it. I hope the moderators are on top of this, They do a good job.

nits

October 26th, 2003, 07:46 AM

First of all, when I suggested you go to a Sasha site it was because you started this thread to begin with. I just don't see any of the Sasha bashing that you're complaining about. I simply suggested that if you want Sasha praise, then you should venture on over to a board that is Sasha centered.
I have read some posts on MKF that discussed Sasha's flaws and strengths, but no outright bashing. (I believe that comment made about the dress was made jokingly. Maybe you're just too sensitive? Similar comments have been made about MK, Irina, and OMG AP's dress as well ;) )
I'm glad you skated with Michelle and Frank. But what does that have to do with your disappointment about MKF? And who, exactly, called you a traitor?
I agree with the others. If you have such a problem with posts, report the "bashing" to the moderators. As they've already shown, they lock up these threads and delete comments very quickly, even if they just feel they're going the wrong way. Good luck.

valuvsmk

October 26th, 2003, 08:03 AM

I agree with what Ogre Mage posted about the minority of posters being consistently snarky about Sasha, Irina, or any of Michelle's competitors. It doesn't take many of these to make the entire forum look bad.

To those of you who seemingly take every opportunity to belittle one of MK's competitors, stop and think: How would you like it if someone else posted the exact same negative comment about Michelle (and don't whine to me that others have done so - that is childish and unproductive, and you should have better sense than to do so yourselves)?

In some corners of the Internet world, MKF is beginning to take on the reputations of some other single-skater-fan-only boards which allow no praise of specific other competitors. While I could never believe that the moderators here would do such a thing explicitly, allowing the venom of even a few posters here to poison the atmosphere is having an effect on this board's reputation. If those posters can't moderate their own posting content or be counselled successfully by the other posters or moderators, maybe they and their poison really just don't deserve to be here. :(

Puce

October 26th, 2003, 09:19 AM

so dont tell me to go to another site....my god, I trained with Michelle, stayed in the cottage next to her in lake arrowhead, played monopoly with her, and other skaters, saw her salome program being coreographed, skated in benefits for foundation scholarships with her in palm beach...etc etc....I love watching her skate, I am not only a huge fan, but when I saw her at the COI and she gave me a big hug and signed several autographs for me to give to my friends, and took the time to actually talk to me backstage consider her a friend to some degree

so since you say that you trained with MK, it makes you a better fan somehow? or maybe your deifinition of bashing is more correct then the others here? perhaps you think that criticism is bashing and some here think that it's not. and you are more correct because you trained with MK? or perhaps you are better equipped to distinguish between bashing and non-bashing because you once trained with MK? i am confused. what does training with MK have to do with posters here bashing? are we supposed to respect your opinion more? or feel guilty because you read some offending posts here, just because you once trained with MK? i don't get it.

and i don't recall nits telling you that you HAVE to go to the sasha site. from what i read, she simply said that if you want outright sasha praise, go to her site. i would say the same thing to any fan of any other skater that posts complaints about the negative treatment of any skater that isn't the skater that the site is dedicated to (wow! run-on sentence! LOL) i would suggest the same thing to any MK fan that doesn't like the way MK is discussed at a sasha centric board. this isn't a general skating board. i understand that there is a general skating section, but this is still the MK forum. probably 99% of the posters here love michelle the most. and i agree that there is some sasha bashing here. just as there is some irina bashing etc... but the mods here are quick to take care of it. sometimes it takes the problem being reported, so if there's a post that offends you...report it. every skater takes some bashing ever year. sasha isn't exempt from it...neither is MK. it may not be right, but that's life. you can't condemn an entire forum because you don't agree with what a few have to say about a skater you love.

edited to add that i have noticed that some of the posters here are very quice to dismiss and gang up on people that don't like the same things they do. for example, clay aiken. if you are not a fan of his you are basically not wanted and a lesser being. or if you post at boards that they don't agree with, suddenly you are "of that ilk". i think that this is disgusting and very narrow-minded. talk about group think.

lavender

October 26th, 2003, 09:29 AM

This not a general skating board is it? I don't think so. This is basically a Michelle Kwan forum. At least I'm hoping it stays that way but lately I'm starting to wonder.

I do have to ask what skating with Michelle, Frank or whoever means?

Terri

October 26th, 2003, 11:01 AM

I'd have to agree with the posters that say the appropiate action to take is to report the problems to the moderators. Criticizing the posters at the board is not the appropiate means. The moderators are dedicated to making this a good board and if you'll become a part of the solution as opposed to being a part of the problem, it will make things a lot easier on everyone.

aprilrose77

October 26th, 2003, 11:11 AM

Sasha, Irina, Sarah, AP, Jenny, whoever . . . there's plenty of criticisms on this board even *gasp* MK (if you don't agree, I suggest going over to MK Fan Chat and read threads such as "Michelle is predictable?" "Things you dislike about Tosca" etc.). Not to say that there aren't certain posters that do bash the skaters but I find that's always to be expected.

beachgirl205

October 26th, 2003, 02:01 PM

Valu, your comments are dead on, on this subject. Maybe the Mods will do the right thing and stop this kind of behavior. Even if it's only a few posters that do it, it gives a bad look to the entire board after awhile.

i12gosk8

October 26th, 2003, 03:03 PM

QUOTE: so since you say that you trained with MK, it makes you a better fan somehow?

When did I say this that I am a better fan? Now we are going to start this? I simply was saying that I was a fan of skating period, making references to other female skaters I have admired in the past, and then saying I was partial to Michelle because we trained with the same coach at one point. Ever heard the expression rooting for the home team, yeah I saw her train and work hard and wanted her to win, she started to become my favorite skater as she improved, I dont see what point you are trying to make? "oh lets start a childish argument, I like her more than you do, I am a bigger fan than you are..."??

I also said that it was a huge honor to train with her, and that other skaters work just as hard, and for me being a skater, you don't want to see other skaters skate bad, they work too hard to have that happen, and just all the stuff about Sasha was quickly becoming annoying, cause I was logging onto this site to just read different opinions about the new judging system, michelles new programs, the outlook on the season, and it just seemed like there were things about Sasha that weren't necessary. I like Sasha a lot too, I think they are both very strong skaters, and think if they both skate well, it will elevate the sport, doesnt mean I am necessarily rooting for sasha to beat michelle now, and should be forced to log onto her site.....

I like Nicole Kidman and Renee Zellwegger. I was happy that they both got nominated for Oscars last year, I personally felt Nicole was better in her role, and was hoping she'd get it, but I didnt run around to various sites saying that Renee couldn't act, or that her hair was ugly, or that Catherine was much better, or that Nicole was a better singer in Moulin Rouge, and other petty things.......I say I like both skaters and get this said to me:

Quote: If you want Sasha praise, I suggest you go to Sashafans. I hear this is a great place to discuss Sasha and ONLY Sasha.

Quote:are we supposed to respect your opinion more?

I never said that. I would expect the same respect as I give to other posters.

Quote: you can't condemn an entire forum because you don't agree with what a few have to say about a skater you love.
When did I ever condemn anyone, i just said i was dissapointed because this form is growing, and TRUSTME, the skaters are aware of it....and I dont want to be a "closet poster" in fear that people would say "you are on that site!!!".

Quote:This not a general skating board is it? I don't think so. This is basically a Michelle Kwan forum. At least I'm hoping it stays that way but lately I'm starting to wonder.
yeah me too.....seems like the majority of the threads lately arent about Michelle at all.

Quote:I agree with what Ogre Mage posted about the minority of posters being consistently snarky about Sasha, Irina, or any of Michelle's competitors. It doesn't take many of these to make the entire forum look bad.
I agree, it only takes a few bad seed to make a rotten apple.

Ice So

October 26th, 2003, 03:12 PM

I believe this kind of thing is exactly what the poster of the thread was talking about:

so since you say that you trained with MK, it makes you a better fan somehow? or maybe your deifinition of bashing is more correct then the others here? perhaps you think that criticism is bashing and some here think that it's not. and you are more correct because you trained with MK? or perhaps you are better equipped to distinguish between bashing and non-bashing because you once trained with MK? i am confused. what does training with MK have to do with posters here bashing? are we supposed to respect your opinion more? or feel guilty because you read some offending posts here, just because you once trained with MK? i don't get it.

Was there really the need to say this? If anything, I'd say it's plain rude. Someone showing how they enjoy Michelle as much as all the other posters and it gets a reply like this? THIS kind of posts is what gives bad reputation to the board.

I'm a lurker, ladies discipline is not my favorite although I'd say Michelle and Sasha are some of my favorites. So I don't think I'm biased LOL I come here once in awhile to read about Michelle's plans and how their fans see them and also to read the general discussions, spoilers, etc. Overall, it's a good board, I'd say, some posts better to be read than others.

With time, this board gained the reputation of being not only for Michelle, but for skating fans in general. And it seems to me that lately it's been more and more Michelle oriented as Sasha Cohen shows to be a contender for gold. Some of the threads and posts in the general parts of the forum look like excuses for Michelle (and a skater of her calibre doesn't need it) and opportunities to show how skater Y (very often Sasha lately) is not as good as her, instead of trying to promote a healthy debate about a certain subject. And it makes the type of posts like the one I quoted above show up more often. Is this what you all want the board to turn into? To the point that whenever someone makes a question (and a true fellow Michelle fan, it seems) it gets rewarded mostly with unfriendly posts?

Terri

October 26th, 2003, 03:26 PM

And it seems to me that lately it's been more and more Michelle oriented...

But it's always been Michelle oriented, hence the name. I'm sorry that you feel that it should be a general skating board but it just isn't.

To the point that whenever someone makes a question (and a true fellow Michelle fan, it seems) it gets rewarded mostly with unfriendly posts?

No, I don't think that's what anyone wants here. I've seen plenty of people say just that when an innocent criticism gets grief. I think we want a board where Michelle fans are able to share both criticism and praise. People are always going to be suspicous of new posters when they come out with criticism. It may not be right but that's the way it is and with reason from past experience. Again, if anyone is truly concerned with specific posts or posters, contact the moderators not the forum at large.

Shiprock

October 26th, 2003, 03:27 PM

This thread has turn into "Gotta have the last word" Syndrome! I wanna play, too!

Puce

October 26th, 2003, 03:29 PM

wow! you people took what i wrote and have obviously made it's meaning totally different in your head. what i was basically trying to say is that this poster seemd to want to use the fact that he/she trained with michelle as a way to get people to believe/trust/accept them more. perhaps that is why i asked the questions i did. i took it as the same as when people that post here meet michelle and they scream "i'm from the forum" just to get closer to her. not everybody has the worst intentions and i think that you jumping to that conclusion says more about you then it does about me. sorry to ask questions that you don't agree with. perhaps next time i want to ask a question i will sumbit it to you for your approval. :rolleyes but why am i explaining myself you you? i really shouldn't have to.

i12gosk8

October 26th, 2003, 04:28 PM

QUOTE: what i was basically trying to say is that this poster seemd to want to use the fact that he/she trained with michelle as a way to get people to believe/trust/accept them more.

No I wasn't, why would I need trust, I only know one member personally, and have traded tapes and gotten autographs for other members....what kind of trust do I need? Yeah I trained with her, angela, jon and kyoko, whatever, I was a skater, trying to say I liked skating, big deal.

Maybe the intentions of this board were to be an only michelle kwan board, but it has turned into a general skating board now.....if its only to be a michelle forum, than nothing should be said about anyone but michelle....simple as that.

Ashley

October 26th, 2003, 04:34 PM

Locking this thread temporarily.

Heather

October 26th, 2003, 10:39 PM

This reply isn't just for this particular thread, but a combination of some concerns raised over the last few weeks. Nothing posted in this reply is aimed specifically at someone that posted in this topic.

It's funny. Some people have been saying that MKF has turned into the anti Michelle forum. "What's going on here? Everything is so negative about Michelle, her programs, her season. Why, why are people doing this? Isn't this forum supposed to be *for* Michelle?" At the same time, people are saying that anything not having to do with Michelle is being bashed "What's going on? Everything is so negative about all skaters that aren't Michelle, their programs, their season. Why, why are people doing this? Isn't this forum supposed to be *for* skating?"

Obviously, it can't be both. So, I ask "What is going on here? Why the heck can't everyone always get along? Oh, that's right, because everyone has their own opinions on these issues. No one, no matter how good their intentions, is going to be able to change another's opinions. Some people are fans of skating first, and then became fans of Michelle (me!) Some people saw Michelle skate by chance, and are primarily fans of hers rather than fans of skating (that's fine too!) And some people just don't like Michelle at all, but like to hang out here too. And at a time where we are going to go a few months between Michelle appearances, what else are we going to be able to talk about. Might as well talk about how things are too [fill in the blank here] at MKF."

I love Michelle. Michelle is human, therefore, she is not perfect. She is not someone to be put on a pedestal and worshipped. She makes mistakes. And not everyone is going to love every little thing she does. Tosca? I'm not in love with it. But, I just about never fall in love with her programs the first time I see it. I want Michelle to win, of course, because she's my favorite skater. But if she doesn't win, it's not the end of the world. To me, all I care about seeing anymore is for Michelle to be happy and for her to skate well. When I decided to go to Worlds last season, I did so after seeing how she skated at Nationals, not because she won Nationals. So, I'm not going to fret over anything other skaters are doing and worry about how Michelle will do (winning wise) at Nationals and Worlds. There are those who will worry about this, though, and I'm not going to try to change their opinion, or even want to change their mind about it. Everyone is free to do and think as they please (as long as they don't over to the side of bashing.)

I like Sasha. She's probably my second favorite female skater. There are things about her and her skating I don't like, sure, but I wouldn't want to read an outright bash about her, just as I wouldn't want for Michelle or any other skater.

This is probably a bunch of rambling, but I do have a point (I think?) MKF is what it is. Like any other forum online it goes through cycles, but it is strong, and will stay here as long as it's members want to keep coming back. If you can't handle that, if it hurts you so much to read something that is posted here, if you get upset while reading the board, well, no one is forcing you to be here. I haven't seen any outright bashing to anyone, but if you have a genuine concern, then let myself and the other moderators know. You can send us an e-mail or PM if you don't want to publicize your concern. Someone said it's only a few posters that are causing the problem. If that's the case, again, let me know.

In the end, though, this *is* a Michelle Kwan Forum. Her picture is the only one you see on the banners and buttons, after all. ;) If someone doesn't want to positively discuss another skater, then that's their right. Bashing, no, that's not good (again, if you see bashing, let us know.) But no one *has* to praise another skater if they don't like them, just because someone skated well, won a competition, is the best thing since sliced bread, etc.

This thread was closed temporarily because it was becoming a he said/she said type of thing, not because of the subject of the post. I hope that since I'm reopening this thread, the back and forth between posters doesn't continue.

KwanBoy23

October 27th, 2003, 04:18 AM

Here here! Well said Heather!

As someone who, ahem, doesn't like Sasha very much as a skater (And I mean I don't, really!) I never go out of my way to talk a load of crap about her, I mean that is just rude. I can tell when she skates well, when she deserves to win a competition, and what I think she could improve upon to be a better skater. I don't make it a habit to go into every Sasha thread and post something negative about her skating. I don't go in a post something positive either. Point is, I don't really like her so why should I post in her topics. I think she's a fine skater, a wonderful athlete, and working very hard to become better and at some point maybe my mind will change about her. But why force myself into all of it when it will really do nothing but cause trouble.

We owe it to everyone else here to act like adults (or young adults, whatever the case may be) and treat each other with respect. Differences of opinion are fine (I mean I just got into it over Michelle flutzing or not!) and are great, they teach everyone something, but there's no need to be rude about it.

Skating Chat is fair game, everyone other than Michelle is mentioned there. Same with spoilers. Michelle Chat is just Michelle. People need to remember this. And people need to also remember that it never helps to be pessimistic all the time. And with that, I'm done.

Proud to be a member of the MKF!!! Almost 4 years now baybay!

skatesindreams

October 27th, 2003, 05:38 AM

Thanks, Heather and KwanBoy!

kwanette

October 27th, 2003, 06:06 AM

"In the end, though, this is a Michelle Kwan forum..."

Thanks, Heather.

lavender

October 27th, 2003, 06:47 AM

Ditto to Kwanette's post.

sk8cynic

October 27th, 2003, 06:56 AM

A couple of points. Hopefully this will be my last post on the subject.

Puce, I completely agree with you that this kind of stuff goes on at the other boards. There is, however, one thing that sets MKF apart from these "other boards." The difference between MKF and those other boards is that MKF isn't run by a dictator that bans anyone and everyone that calls people on tactless, inflammatory comments and bashing of rivals, commentators, and the like. It's a complete gesture in futility to say something when the owner/admin of a forum either openly promotes that kind of hatred and resentment, or does nothing to stop it from happening. I am extremely thankful that Heather is the antithesis of the above described board owners/admins. They could certainly learn a few lessons by her example.

I wouldn't be so adamant in my stance over here if I didn't feel that MKF is, in just about every aspect, a great board. I guess to an extent, I do hold MKF to a higher standard, and here is why: MKFers are extremely proud of the fact that Michelle is the best-loved and most famous of the current eligible skaters on the scene today. She is held to an incredibly high standard, and is always commended for her tact and class. How many people out there have cultivated a love of figure skating because of Michelle? I'd be willing to bet the number is waaaaay up there. For many, many figure skating fans (not just Michelle fans), MKF is often the first forum they will go to. I don't think the majority of MKF's members want new lurkers, members, or MK fans to think that there a requisite of complete and utter blind devotion, that it's okay to belittle other skaters, snark on commentators, and endorse negativity with regard to her competitors, or that they will be punished or reprimanded for having an opinion that differs from another member.

Bad behavior on other boards doesn't justify stooping to their level. I don't believe anything good can come of that. Take a look at the number of regular members of those boards, the the level of activity on them. IMO the lack of interest in participating on those boards is a direct result of the classless behavior that goes on there.

The snarking over here used to be minimal and at a tolerable level, but lately it's becoming more prevalent, and all the little digs, insults, and snarks, when combined, contribute to tarnishing the reputation of what I consider to be one of the best fan-based forums on the 'Net.

True, this is The Michelle Kwan Forum. Because I'm not a devoted Michelle fan (though I do enjoy her skating and both appreciate and respect her accomplishments and legendary status she has in the figure skating world), I pretty much stay out of the threads in MK Fan Chat, and if I do post in that particular forum, I'm not about to say anything negative about Michelle - that's the place to gush to ones heart's content. I respect that.

It would be nice, though, if there were a more open and respectful attitude in the Skating Chat and Spoilers, even while expressing criticism and dislike. I don't expect to change anyone's opinion or perspective, nor would I try to force anyone to do so. All I ask is that where discussions of all skaters and people tied to the sport are concerned, that they are shown at least some modicum of decency. They deserve that much.

ETA: For the record, so no one thinks I'm a hypocrite, I have posted these same exact concerns over at SashaFans. It will be interesting to see if I get banned for it. Again, special thank you to Heather for allowing differences of opinion here at MKF. You do Michelle proud.

egskater0003

October 27th, 2003, 07:48 AM

my 2 cents.

To original poster(thread starter)...I understand what you're saying, but this is not even a spoilers topic.

And all forums have someone who will bash another skater regardless of the bashing rules. If you think MKF "could be shut down" well then you haven't visited other skating forums.
MKF is pretty mild compared to other forums and I for one happen to think MKF is a great Forum with great people who can come together and organized great things.

Examples: Medal for Michelle and $10,000 charity check.

I think you should probably check out goldenskate.com. It might more to your liking. They're more diverse in terms of which skaters they like so their posts aren't all about Michelle. (Not that MKF members aren't diverse in what skaters they like, but this a Michelle Kwan FAN forum so of course almost all here are going to rave about Michelle)

TarotX

October 27th, 2003, 08:40 AM

It's not the raving of Michelle that is being questioned here. Everybody expects that and I don't know many "skating" fans who want to diss Michelle. Michelle is this special person who brought/brings servility to the skating world. And that's what we want here at this forum. I think we expect it and when the atmosphere of the board feels burden with negativity we notice it more because it's not what we think of when we think Michelle.

As for Sasha-she's a showy skater who some are drawn too and others feel she threatens "skating" because she is about wow moments more then pure skating. I think people of both groups just don't understand the others point of view and it gets testy. The think we have to remember is that skating is subjective even in it's most objective moments. The technical merit is judged through the "presentation".

Personally I love both types of skaters if they have a strong presence on the ice. Yeah I think I'm drawn to strength. Jenny is so delicate that it looks like the wind will blow her away. I think I would score her type of skating lower then Michelle even though I think they are the same type of skater. IF Michelle only does 6 jumps and stumbles slightly on one and Jenny gives the same performance as she did at Skate America Michelle wins hands down. Her foot work, spins, spirals, flow and energy tops Jenny by large degrees in my opinion. I think Jenny is so week that I would place Michelle's Campbell's equal or a close second to this great Jenny skate. Spins are important and when you aren't central at all it affects not just the spin score but the over all skating score. The same with the spiral and other "skills". IMO anyway.

The reason I brought Jenny into this is because I'm more a less new in learning about skating and I thought I would critique Jenny to see how far we think bashing goes. I think I'm just critiquing though my bias of strength but what do you guys think?

I've skating watched forever but I want to learn how to judge more actually. The quest for knowledge came from reading MKF. You guys have inspired me. I think that's also why the bashing feels worse here. I know this forum is better than that.

Ot: I asked once before but can't member the answer where does the below emotions come from?

:SS

Thanks!!

GinnySmith

October 27th, 2003, 10:14 AM

TarotX--

IMO, your comments about Jenny are not bashing. You stated an opinion that she is weaker than Michelle and that Michelle has superior spins and spirals, etc.

I agree Jenny traveled on some of her spins in the LP, but I liked her layback a lot. As far as her stength goes, she looked much stronger to me yesterday than she ever has. Her jumps are solid as a rock, with good height, good entry into them and nice flow and speed out. Her Sal was a little tilted, but she saved it and that takes coordination and strength. That triple/triple was to die for and as good as any I've seen Michelle complete.

I think that Jenny might be a lot stronger than she looks because her jumps are so solid. Her stamina also appeared to be very good because there were no major pauses in the program, she completed a triple/triple, and her other jumps were nicely spread out through the performance. And, she did not seem to be breathing too hard when she was finished.

Sorry to go off topic, but I wanted to weigh in on your comments about Jenny. Thanks.