Anybody's skating?

[YankeesROCK]

I was following the thread of Emily's Skating, and it all came back around to Michelle's skating. Would it be any different if it were a thread about Tara's skating, or Kimmie's skating, or you fill in the blank's skating. Now, I'm a huge Michelle Kwan fan but I am getting a little tired of these threads all coming to the same end.
So, what is this really all about? Is it latent jealousy that these other skaters are getting attention and medals and recognition but Michelle is not and may not again?:lol
I hope that we can begin supporting these skaters. They are representing our country on the world stage. They have personal integrity, train hard, and are fierce competitors. Can we find things that are positive, that we do like about their skating. Let's see how they fare on the world stage next month before burying their skating careers under the categories of "she's only got medals because her sister did" or "she's not like Michelle so I can't stand her."
Okay so about Emily, she is a very athletic skater. Remember Debbie Thomas?
Or, let's just talk about men's skating! Go Evan! Go Johnny! Go Ryan! :clap

[berthesghost]

Okay so about Emily, she is a very athletic skater. Remember Debbie Thomas?Oh no you didn't!

Please people, Tonya Harding..Debi Thomas...why must we keep comparing Emily to people who can skate circles around her? Why not just compare her to people on her actual level.... Yoshie Onda, Viktoria Volchkova, Tonia Kwiatkowski, etc...

[Krista]

Oh no you didn't!

Please people, Tonya Harding..Debi Thomas...why must we keep comparing Emily to people who can skate circles around her? Why not just compare her to people on her actual level.... Yoshie Onda, Viktoria Volchkova, Tonia Kwiatkowski, etc...

:clap well said BG.

Debi Thomas has control and grace to her skating, even though she was also athletic.

[ScrappyTheOwl]

Oh no you didn't!

Please people, Tonya Harding..Debi Thomas...why must we keep comparing Emily to people who can skate circles around her? Why not just compare her to people on her actual level.... Yoshie Onda, Viktoria Volchkova, Tonia Kwiatkowski, etc...

Couldn't have put that better myself ...

[ceap]

I was following the thread of Emily's Skating, and it all came back around to Michelle's skating. Would it be any different if it were a thread about Tara's skating, or Kimmie's skating, or you fill in the blank's skating. Now, I'm a huge Michelle Kwan fan but I am getting a little tired of these threads all coming to the same end.
So, what is this really all about? Is it latent jealousy that these other skaters are getting attention and medals and recognition but Michelle is not and may not again?:lol
I hope that we can begin supporting these skaters. They are representing our country on the world stage. They have personal integrity, train hard, and are fierce competitors. Can we find things that are positive, that we do like about their skating. Let's see how they fare on the world stage next month before burying their skating careers under the categories of "she's only got medals because her sister did" or "she's not like Michelle so I can't stand her."
Okay so about Emily, she is a very athletic skater. Remember Debbie Thomas?
Or, let's just talk about men's skating! Go Evan! Go Johnny! Go Ryan! :clap


We are beating a dead horse here!!!

I support ALL US skaters, but I don't have to be a fan of their skating. I don't like Emily's skating. I supported Sarah's skating, but never liked her skating. I supported and liked Nancy Kerrigan's skating quite a bit, but wasn't a big fan of her personality. I supported Tim Goebel, but honestly didn't really like his skating.

Does it make me a bad person? No. Why do I have to like their skating b/c they represent the United States?

I wish some posters would stop with all this. We can support all the skaters in the world but not like their skating. Sheesh! What's with this constant testing of "Are we supporting our US skaters or not?" I don't appreciate it.

End of rant.

[kwanette]

So, what is this really all about? Is it latent jealousy that these other skaters are getting attention and medals and recognition but Michelle is not and may not again?:lol


I'm just trying to figure out the laugh icon.

[BatonKwan]

This is the "Michelle Kwan" Forum. All threads lead back to Michelle, and that's the way it should be.

[clarivan12]

Amen BG regarding Debi Thomas!!!!! There just is no comparison between Debi and Emily!!!!!

[Brandon]

Ummm C’mon now...didn’t ya’ll notice the “Now, I'm a huge Michelle Kwan fan BUT” part...do I really have to ‘xplain this too? C’mon, it starts with a “T” and ends with an “L”...and has the letter “R” in the middle...c’mon now...say it with me.....NOOOOO not TRL...OY! lol

[cestlavie000000]

I support only skaters that I like to watch. It has nothing to do with their country of origin. I love to watch and support Jeff Buttle (wish he would hit his jumps though). I love to watch Yu Na and root for her. I root for Kimmie although her skating is not my favorite style but she is improving and she is a good competitor. I root for Joannie because I like her style and she seems like a neat person. I like Johnny Weir because so far he is the only skater to move me the way Michelle used to. I like Joubert because he is athletic exciting to watch and he is real easy on the eyes. I like Miki Ando because I like her athleticism and when she hits that 3 lutz/3 loop it is out of this world.

I rooted and like Michelle Kwan because I think she is a great skater and I enjoy watching her. I could care less what country she is from.

Oh and by the way please never compare Debi Thomas to Emily. Debi's skating was way out of Emily's league. But I think Debbie had real high MCAT and SAT scores!

[vive_la_reine]

Ya know, when I signed up for the Michelle Kwan Forum back in 1999, it was simply because I was (and still am) a fan of Michelle, her skating and the way she handled herself both on and off the ice.

I didn't sign a freaking contract or binding agreement that I would forever support future skaters, current skaters, skaters from outer space. Nor did I marry figure skating and promise to support it in sickness and health until death do us part.

Read my lips: I am a Michelle Kwan Fan and owe nothing to any skater or to the sport. So stop begging me to support <fill in the blank> skater(s).

Enough is enough, already! :comp

[Sparks]

I'm with Ginny here...and cestlavie to some extent. I like who I like...regardless of country of origin, etc. I enjoy a certain type of SKATING/SKATER.

Sparks, still waiting to root for a skater from outer space and still trying to figure out the laughing emoticon.

[cmacd]

I agree with Ginnysmith as well.

I liked Lance Armstrong biking -- he is gone -- I don't really watch biking anymore (well I must admit I catch a sneak at Hincapie - but know he will never be in Lance's league on the bike - the shorts aren't have bad though).

I liked Shannon Miller (gymnastics) -- no one has really caused me to be excited about gymnastics like her -- even though I thought MaryLou Retton was cute.

I think there is that one athlete in a sport that draws you in -- and if you have been fortunate enough to see the best at play -- it is hard to settle for something less.

In skating -- that person is Michelle for me. So -- I can't even get into the "lively discussions" about Emily or Kimmie or Alissa or Mao or whomever. I will forever spend my time watching youtube -- because that it where I get the tears in my eyes and I am taken to a special place.

I admire people who can move past what was and look for the next what might be because I am running out of sports where that someone special has piqued my interest!

[Lisa Seye]

Ginny Thanks.

[berthesghost]

I was following the thread of Emily's Skating, and it all came back around to Michelle's skating. Would it be any different if it were a thread about Tara's skating, or Kimmie's skating, or you fill in the blank's skating. Now, I'm a huge Michelle Kwan fan but I am getting a little tired of these threads all coming to the same end.Just who do you think you are fooling with your "fill in the blank" crap? No, the skating of Kimmie and Emily is not well admired around here, as you've noticed, so why not just completely ignore the threads about skaters who are well liked here (Bebe, Alissa, etc...) and instead lecture us all on how we must post only nice things about the people youlike.

Oh, and here's a helpful hint, posts like yours are suppose to end with an admonishment like "Michelle would be ashamed of you all if she read this thread" :wink

[moxie]

No, the skating of Kimmie and Emily is not well admired around here, as you've noticed, so why not just completely ignore the threads about skaters who are well liked here (Bebe, Alissa, etc...)

You know, I just finally got it: MKF isn't really a place that welcomes comments and discussion about all skaters ... even in Skating Chat (which was specifially set up for such discussions).

"Around here," it's really just an exclusive clique in which the accepted "in crowd" has dictated that there can only be praise for Bebe and Alissa and makes its painfully obvious that any praise of Kimmie and Emily by the "out crowd" is not to be tolerated.

Silly me. I thought it was OK to like and/or support them all.

[Erin S.]

You know, I just finally got it: MKF isn't really a place that welcomes comments and discussion about all skaters ... even in Skating Chat (which was specifially set up for such discussions).

"Around here," it's really just an exclusive clique in which the accepted "in crowd" has dictated that there can only be praise for Bebe and Alissa and makes its painfully obvious that any praise of Kimmie and Emily by the "out crowd" is not to be tolerated.

Silly me. I thought it was OK to like and/or support them all.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Berthesghost was just responding to the critique that no one on this forum likes any of the current skaters by pointing out that there IS a lot of support for Alissa and Bebe. I didn't take that as an affirmative insistence upon the need to dislike Emily and Kimmie. It was just a statement of fact in response to the OP's categorical statement that no one here ever wants to support anyone else in the absence of Michelle. I would add myself that there's also a lot of support for Caroline and Mirai.

I don't think it's all that shocking that a group of people who have come together because they love MK's style of skating tend to prefer the current skaters who come closest to that over those who don't. I am not actually an enormous Bebe fan myself, but what I love about Alissa is her embrace of her music, her almost "intellectual" connection with her program, her beautiful lines, and her general grace--these are things which Michelle exemplified and which I think a lot of people are looking for in the current skaters. And of course we're all human beings, and it's difficult not to react to the media's annointment of Kimmie as the new ice princess, or whatever, on the heels of how Michelle was so recently (and so absurdly, based on the performances she was throwing down as recently as 2005) being portrayed as a has-been. NO ONE can come close to what she was capable of, and I think that if Kimmie and Emily weren't being touted as some sort of perfect substitute for what we've lost it would be a little easier to take. Again, human nature: it's easier for a lot of us to get into Alissa and Bebe's skating when it's not being blown up by the media as being more than it is.

Sorry, I've digressed (long day!): bottom line is, I hope we can all talk about all of the skaters, respectfully and fairly. But I will never think it's a shortcoming if someone uses Michelle as the standard to compare them all to.

[kwanette]

I always like the assumption or the presumption that if people don't go ga=ga over a skater it is because they (we) are jealous...or that all roads lead to Michelle. I won't speak for everyone, BUTT, I do know that a few people were fans of the sport long before there was a Michelle Kwan on the ice..or even on the planet.I would think that w/o being lectured we do know that the skaters work hard for the most part...and that in one way or another their parents make sacrifices.

I preferred Roz's skating to Elaine's...and preferred Tiffany's to both of them.
I preferred Browning's to Petrenko, Bowman to Browning, and Wylie over all of them. I preferred Klimova and Pomerenko to B and B...and both Mike and Judy and Wilson and McCall over the aforementioned dancers. The fans have eyes and the fans have preferences.It doesn't always have to do with Michelle.

[ceap]

You know, I just finally got it: MKF isn't really a place that welcomes comments and discussion about all skaters ... even in Skating Chat (which was specifially set up for such discussions).

"Around here," it's really just an exclusive clique in which the accepted "in crowd" has dictated that there can only be praise for Bebe and Alissa and makes its painfully obvious that any praise of Kimmie and Emily by the "out crowd" is not to be tolerated.

Silly me. I thought it was OK to like and/or support them all.


That isn't fair or accurate. Many posters here loved and appreciated Irina and Sasha's skating.

BG was just saying some aren't a fan of Emily and Kimmie's STYLE of skating and it's not because they aren't Michelle.

Sheesh - what is everyone's problem?

[moxie]

Kwanette, I agree 100% with your assessment of skaters from the past.
Thank you for reminding me of some of my favorites!


I don't think that's entirely fair. Berthesghost was just responding to the critique that no one on this forum likes any of the current skaters by pointing out that there IS a lot of support for Alissa and Bebe..

I re-read BG's post (yet again) & it very specifically said that "around here," the skating of Alissa and Bebe is admired and the skating of Kimmie and Emily is not... it wasn't just "her" opinion or the opinion of "many" here, but the absolute accepted position "around here." (Actually, I am one of those "around here" who prefers a clean Alissa and Bebe to a clean Kimmie and Emily, but I also think Kimmie and Emily are talented skaters who deserve to be discussed within bounds of politeness, even when being criticized.)


It's difficult not to react to the media's annointment of Kimmie as the new ice princess, or whatever, on the heels of how Michelle was so recently (and so absurdly, based on the performances she was throwing down as recently as 2005) being portrayed as a has-been.

The media did not annoit Kimmie as the new ice princess; she did that herself, by virtue of being the new world champion and the new national champion. With Michelle and Sasha not at Nationals this year, the skater who won the ladies' title would naturally be the "new ice princess."

Recently (or at least since Turino), Michelle has been widely portrayed as a legendary champion who due to injury has not been able to compete for two years and who does not have plans to compete in the near future. I don't recall the term "has-been" having been used in stories about her. Unless you consider "has-been" and "probably retired" to be the same thing.

[Krista]

I always like the assumption or the presumption that if people don't go ga=ga over a skater it is because they (we) are jealous...or that all roads lead to Michelle. I won't speak for everyone, BUTT, I do know that a few people were fans of the sport long before there was a Michelle Kwan on the ice..or even on the planet.I would think that w/o being lectured we do know that the skaters work hard for the most part...and that in one way or another their parents make sacrifices.

I preferred Roz' skating to Elaine's...and preferred Tiffany's to both of them.
I preferred Browning's to Petrenko, Bowman to Browning, and Wylie over all of them. I preferred Klimova and Pomerenko to B and B...and both Mike and Judy and Wilson and McCall over the aforementioned dancers. The fans have eyes and the fans have preferences.It doesn't always have to do with Michelle.

very nicely stated :)

[missmarysgarden]

Thank you, Ginny, BGOI and Kwanette.

[berthesghost]

I re-read BG's post (yet again) & it very specifically said that "around here," the skating of Alissa and Bebe is admired and the skating of Kimmie and Emily is not... it wasn't just "her" opinion or the opinion of "many" here, but the absolute accepted position "around here." (Actually, I am one of those "around here" who prefers a clean Alissa and Bebe to a clean Kimmie and Emily, but I also think Kimmie and Emily are talented skaters who deserve to be discussed within bounds of politeness, even when being criticized.)I think you're reading too much into it. All I meant was that if you take a look around, you can tell that more than half the people at MKF seem to like Bebe abd Alisaa while more than 50% seem to think Emily and Kimmie are overrated. That's all. So, why chastise us for our opinions? And why exagerate to make your point? We don't hate everyone who isn't Kwan.

The media did not annoit Kimmie as the new ice princess; she did that herself, by virtue of being the new world champion and the new national champion. With Michelle and Sasha not at Nationals this year, the skater who won the ladies' title would naturally be the "new ice princess." Kimmie won herself a world championship where she was an underdog. That made me respect her a lot more. Now that she has some hardware, the hype is seeming more deserved. But, the "anointment" started way before, and a lot of feathers were ruffled when Kimmie was singled out to do ESPN fluff pieces, color commentary, was intited to an event she wasn't competitng at at their expense, and was shown inthe booth with legends Peggy and Dick. There was plenty of evidence that Kimmie was "made" long before her Oly team an/or world title. It is to her credit that she delivered on it, but grumblings of "special treatment" started back in 2005, and people are still carping on her rattified 3 axel. If all one had to do was win a title to be deemed "Ice princess" then magazine covers would be splashed with Tatiana Malinina's picture and little girls would be playing with MAria Buturskaya dolls. No, "Ice Princess" is a title the media bestoys, nobody gives it to themsleves (Tara vs. Michelle post Nagano anyone?) .

[phairgame]

Isn't this thread against the following rule:

4. If a thread is locked, DO NOT start another topic to further discuss the issue. If a thread was locked, it was locked for a reason.

The Emily thread was indeed locked for a reason--it turned into some general bashes on the Hughes family, and posters complaining to and about each other.

This thread is headed in the same direction. Waste 'o time--and not discusisng anything substantive about skating.

[berthesghost]

Isn't this thread against the following rule:

4. If a thread is locked, DO NOT start another topic to further discuss the issue. If a thread was locked, it was locked for a reason.

The Emily thread was indeed locked for a reason--it turned into some general bashes on the Hughes family, and posters complaining to and about each other.

This thread is headed in the same direction. Waste 'o time--and not discusisng anything substantive about skating.
Technically, no.

1. The Emily thread got closed after this one was started
2. Technically, it's a different topic: "Isn't Emily wonderful!" vs. "Why dod you all hate anyone who isn't Kwan?", just the same result. :D

[missmarysgarden]

You know, I just finally got it: MKF isn't really a place that welcomes comments and discussion about all skaters ... even in Skating Chat (which was specifially set up for such discussions).

"Around here," it's really just an exclusive clique in which the accepted "in crowd" has dictated that there can only be praise for Bebe and Alissa and makes its painfully obvious that any praise of Kimmie and Emily by the "out crowd" is not to be tolerated.

Silly me. I thought it was OK to like and/or support them all.

Moxie, its just that "liking and supporting them all" makes you appear indecisive, and as if you haven't done your research - it makes your writing appear like "happy talk" when people are trying to talk about skating.

[lavender]

Wow, like Emily and Kimmie all you want. You have that right but we have the right to not like their skating. It's not surprising that most people here wouldn't take to Kimmie or Emily since they like Michelle's style. There's a reason that people enjoy Caroline and mirai. They have that style. Look, Kimmie and Emily are probably nice young ladies but why is it so hard to not get that people here and perhaps all over don't really get into their skating.


Thank you, Ginny, BGOI and Kwanette, ceap. I support who's skating I like no matter where they come from.

Also I was a skating fan before Michelle came a long. Now things have changed I'm not really a figure skating fanatic anymore. However, being a Michelle fan is constant.

[berthesghost]

Wow, like Emily and Kimmie all you want. You have that right but we have the right to not like them. It's not surprising that most people here wouldn't take to Kimmie or Emily since they like Michelle's style. There's a reason that people enjoy Caroline and mirai. They have that style. Look Kimmie and Emily are probably nice young ladies but why is it so hard to not get that people here and perhaps all over don't really get into their skating.

Would you expect your friends to like everything you like.
Because that is too practical and not nearly as entertaining as accusations of high school style cliques, jealous hatreds, and the ever useful "vast right-wing conspiracy" to hurl at your perceived enemies. :lol

[kittyjake5]

Wow, like Emily and Kimmie all you want. You have that right but we have the right to not like their skating It's not surprising that most people here wouldn't take to Kimmie or Emily since they like Michelle's style. There's a reason that people enjoy Caroline and mirai. They have that style. Look Kimmie and Emily are probably nice young ladies but why is it so hard to not get that people here and perhaps all over don't really get into their skating.


Thank you, Ginny, BGOI and Kwanette, ceap. I support who's skating I like no matter where they come from.

Also I was a skating fan before Michelle came a long. Now things have changed I'm not really a figure skating fanatic anymore. However, being a Michelle fan is constant.


Good post Lavender. People can like, root, dislike and even love who they want. I don't see why
we all have to like the same thing. That would make for a pretty boring forum and world. If Kimmie and Emily
are your cup of tea there is nothing wrong with that I expect they have a lot of fans. As I have posted before
they both have some good qualities and I hope that they do well but I am not a fan of their skating style
and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't see why we have to argue about it. Let it be.

[Kwansbackin2007]

Well obviously we all can not like the same skaters or even support the same skaters with the exception being Michelle Kwan.

This forum is Michelle's just like Ginny stated and it is why I am now here. Not because of Kimmie and I think she is a very sweet and humble person that skates well. Not because of Alissa and I think she brings the artistic quality that can take you with her on the ice and through her performance. NOT because of Emily, well because I agree with many that she is just not up to par with the top skaters and does absolutely nothing for the sport but keep the Hughes name alive.

I signed on to this forum for one reason. Michelle Kwan. I'll say it. I want her to return. I want her to kick butt and win it all. I also don't care if she chooses to go out and just do crossovers on the ice. I would cheer her on as the best.

Her edges alone are the best. Add the artistic skill she brought to the ice and she alone maintains at the level of perfection. Add the style, grace, beauty and true love of the sport she has given as a gift to the world. No other skater will ever take skating to this level. Michelle is the most decorated figure skater the U.S. will ever have in the history of the sport. Her numbers state that she is perfection. No present or future skater will ever put the love, work and dedication into staying with the sport that she seems to love like no other.

So yes, Michelle is the best. This is the MICHELLE KWAN FORUM with the sub-category of Skating Chat...:clap

[gatzbee]

o lord. i foresee this thread closing some time soon :P

there is a good deal of love for other skaters on this forum. some are quite taken by yu na and some like mao, or both. there are many skaters that one could like, but most likely our first and foremost skater that we love is michelle kwan. and when we look at other skaters, its hard not to remember in the back of our heads a legend that dominated FS for almost a decade. its all really a matter of taste in the end. i do think often times threads may veer wayward from the original topic, but its only human. we aren't tunnel-visioned ppl.

but i have to say, after seeing the emily thread, and now THIS, i feel like now this is really trying to incite something... anyhow, when there are threads about other ppl's skating, there's bound to be replies that just will not respond positively lol. we can like kwan, we can like other skaters. but in the end its just personal choice and taste.

[Lisa Seye]

Well obviously we all can not like the same skaters or even support the same skaters with the exception being Michelle Kwan.

This forum is Michelle's just like Ginny stated and it is why I am now here. Not because of Kimmie and I think she is a very sweet and humble person that skates well. Not because of Alissa and I think she brings the artistic quality that can take you with her on the ice and through her performance. NOT because of Emily, well because I agree with many that she is just not up to par with the top skaters and does absolutely nothing for the sport but keep the Hughes name alive.

I signed on to this forum for one reason. Michelle Kwan. I'll say it. I want her to return. I want her to kick butt and win it all. I also don't care if she chooses to go out and just do crossovers on the ice. I would cheer her on as the best.

Her edges alone are the best. Add the artistic skill she brought to the ice and she alone maintains at the level of perfection. Add the style, grace, beauty and true love of the sport she has given as a gift to the world. No other skater will ever take skating to this level. Michelle is the most decorated figure skater the U.S. will ever have in the history of the sport. Her numbers state that she is perfection. No present or future skater will ever put the love, work and dedication into staying with the sport that she seems to love like no other.

So yes, Michelle is the best. This is the MICHELLE KWAN FORUM with the sub-category of Skating Chat...:clap

Welcome to the Michelle Kwan Forum where we celebrate Michelle and discuss others :D

[Sparks]

Because that is too practical and not nearly as entertaining as accusations of high school style cliques, jealous hatreds, and the ever useful "vast right-wing conspiracy" to hurl at your perceived enemies.
:lol
LOL! Thanks for saying this, BG. :clap
I find it both amusing and annoying when I see the word, "clique" thrown around.


MKF isn't really a place that welcomes comments and discussion about all skaters ... even in Skating Chat
I disagree with this statement. MKF is a fine place for comments and discussions about all skaters...it's just that we don't always agree, nor do we feel the need to root for all skaters equally...what's the fun in that?

[nymkfan51]

o lord. i foresee this thread closing some time soon :P

It should never have been started to begin with.


And moxie ... just a question for you. Do you think this comment that was made in the opening post of this thread is one we are not supposed to have a problem with? kwanette questioned the laughing icon, but received no response. Are we just expected to tolerate these kinds of insults?



So, what is this really all about? Is it latent jealousy that these other skaters are getting attention and medals and recognition but Michelle is not and may not again?:lol

[moxie]

It should never have been started to begin with.


And moxie ... just a question for you. Do you think this comment that was made in the opening post of this thread is one we are not supposed to have a problem with? kwanette questioned the laughing icon, but received no response. Are we just expected to tolerate these kinds of insults?

Since I didn't make the opening comment and also couldn't figure out why the icon was there, I have nothing to say about it. I thought Kwanette's comment was quite clear on the subject and didn't need a response from me.


MMG said: "Moxie, its just that "liking and supporting them all" makes you appear indecisive, and as if you haven't done your research - it makes your writing appear like "happy talk" when people are trying to talk about skating.

I didn't say we should like AND support every skater; I said like and/OR support; meaning that even if we can't stand someone's skating, we could at least be politely supportive of the efforts that these young athletes (many of them still children) are making to train hard and represent their respective countries.

And no, I am not advocating "happy talk"; after all, one of the most fun parts of being a figure skating fan is being able to critique all the competitors' strengths and weaknesses. But really, can't we just stick to actual skating and skip the comments about outside-of-rink issues?

[YankeesSuck01]

Wait a second. You want me to say something nice about someones skating if I don't feel that way?

I didn't force anyone to put themselves in the public eye. I am sure everyone appreciate the effort to get up at 4am every morning to practice but they chose to do this. No one is making them do it.

Sorry I am sure Emily Hughes works really hard at what she does but I don't like a single thing about her skating. Its that simple.

It is very nice Moxie that you can find positive stuff in every skater but others have a right to not feel that way. You like what you like.

[lavender]

I said like and/OR support; meaning that even if we can't stand someone's skating, we could at least be politely supportive of the efforts that these young athletes (many of them still children) are making to train hard and represent their respective countries.

How do you do support that which you can't stand or like? Anyhoo we do support the children...that's Caroline, Mirai and a few of the juniors. Now those are children. I don't see Kimmie (no matter how young she acts) or Emily as children. They are young ladies.

[Lisa Seye]

But can we really skip outside of rink issues when outside of rink issues have been brought into the rink for decades?

[moskva]

i think the highschool clique comparison is mildly accurate. after all, it was not that long ago that a very vocal poster described emily's thighs as 'trunk-like.' very immature and reminiscent of grade-school name-calling, imho. so, if the clique lable sticks, don't blame the messenger.

[moxie]

Wait a second. You want me to say something nice about someones skating if I don't feel that way?

It is very nice Moxie that you can find positive stuff in every skater but others have a right to not feel that way. You like what you like.

I never said: 1) That people must post nice things about skating they dislike; or 2) That people have to be positive about every skater.

All I asked was that when we do criticize, we do it politely.
I truly do not understand why that is such a difficult statement to grasp.

[YankeesSuck01]

Probably because your idea of polite is different then most. You seem to expect everyone to be the high standard you feel you yourself are but most people can't be that high and mighty. I have seen only a few things at this board that could be considered over the line.

Sorry I don't think anyone could live up to your standards of yourself Moxie.

[vive_la_reine]

And the Beat Goes On....and The Beat Goes on...Yada..Yada...well you get my point

Am I the only one in the universe who believes it is somewhat wrong-headed to come to a skater specific fan board and expect completely gracious and non-baised commentary on all skaters?

There are plenty of generic skating boards for such discussion: FSU, GoldenSkate...etc..etc...etc...

However it doesn't take a genius to figure out why these expectations are posted here. Quite frankly, Michelle Kwan is still the face of figure skating more than any other entity related to figure skating. So those who have their agendas for their skaters have figured out that if you want to be recognized, post in Skating Chat of the Michelle Kwan Forum and it is more likely it will be seen than anywhere else on the net. JMHO, of course.

[moxie]

Actually, I did very specifically come to the Michelle Kwan Forum (instead of other skating boards) because I did expect that her fans would be gracious, both about other skaters and about each other.

Sorry if that makes me wrong-headed.

[kittyjake5]

I think maybe we all need some group therapy. (jk)

Not to long ago there were several arguments going on about Sasha being bashed on this board and not getting the respect she deserves from some MKF members. It got to the point that threads were being closed and some Sasha defenders were policing the threads and nitpicking every post (real or imagined) that was not favorable to Sasha. It did get ugly for awhile. I am not making any judgments or blaming Sasha fans or non-Sasha fans but I do see similarities in this thread. Maybe Emily's fans can start a gushing thread just for Emily. Just an observation from a neutral poster who tries to see both sides.

[ScrappyTheOwl]

Actually, I did very specifically come to the Michelle Kwan Forum (instead of other skating boards) because I did expect that her fans would be gracious, both about other skaters and about each other.

Sorry if that makes me wrong-headed.

So ... you came here expecting a eutopia?

I don't mean that to be rude, it's just ... setting the bar way too high. We're humans, not robots. We like things, we hate things, we don't care about things ... and we have every right to share those opinions.

[iceman]

Children, please behave now. rotfl

[moxie]

So ... you came here expecting a eutopia?

I don't mean that to be rude, it's just ... setting the bar way too high. We're humans, not robots. We like things, we hate things, we don't care about things ... and we have every right to share those opinions.

It is not "expecting a utopia" to think that it is possible for posters
to express strong opinions while still being civil about it.

[gatzbee]

we are fans of michelle kwan. we're not perfect. y are we expected to be held to some higher standard JUST b/c we are MK fans? and honestly i come here b/c i find criticisms to be quite mild compared to what ive seen on other boards.

[Skatekwan6]

I don't care what anyone thinks- I like Kimmie!

Emily is okay- sometimes I like her skating and sometimes I don't. But she has good qualities and a competitive spirit that is worth appreciating.

[jaylee]

I think maybe we all need some group therapy. (jk)

Not to long ago there were several arguments going on about Sasha being bashed on this board and not getting the respect she deserves from some MKF members. It got to the point that threads were being closed and some Sasha defenders were policing the threads and nitpicking every post (real or imagined) that was not favorable to Sasha. It did get ugly for awhile. I am not making any judgments or blaming Sasha fans or non-Sasha fans but I do see similarities in this thread. Maybe Emily's fans can start a gushing thread just for Emily. Just an observation from a neutral poster who tries to see both sides.

Thank you kittyjake5! The same thought occurred to me. I think the situations are fairly similar.

It frustrates me when Emily's skating is being discussed fairly and critically, then one person will pop in with a more irrelevant opinion, and then someone else responds condemning *all* Emily critics as bitter and full of hate and implying that Emily should be immune to criticism. From one extreme to the other.

I have no problem voicing my opinions of Alissa, Bebe, Emily, Kimmie. Sometimes they're positive and sometimes they're not. I don't agree that certain types of opinions of those skaters are welcome and others are not--I see opinions of those skaters all over the place right here! Certainly there's a majority feeling for certain skaters, but there still is diversity of opinion overall. Sometimes other posters don't agree with my positive opinion of a skater--oh well! I don't take it personally and I don't attack them personally.

[lavender]

I think we are civil until some person puts all this expectations on us and judge us. That's when all gloves are off.

[ceap]

I think we are civil until some person puts all this expectations on us and judge us. That's when all gloves are off.


AND tells us it's jealously when we don't like someone's skating. Puuuuulease! And then tells us we don't know how to support our US skaters if we don't like their skating. Gag me now.

I didn't know when I joined this forum that one of the rules was...

We all had to like the same skaters or be damned.

[berthesghost]

nevermind.

[Nathan]

The only thing that bothers me is that clearly there's a "Clique" mentality on this board, and though many people behave in this manner, they wont own up to it. It's definitely like a cool kids at the lunch table...and then there's everyone else...

It present itself as a safe haven to discuss all skaters fairly, in a respectful environment. While many posters practice this philosophy, I would say a little more than the majority of frequent poster do not.

There are clearly skaters that the board has sponsored (not officially of course) as accepted skaters, anyone else is going to be met with harsh criticism, and overall rejection.

and yes it is the way of sport to be competetive, critical, and even sometimes nasty towards rival athlete's, yet if this is the case then why are so many people ready to hang someone who makes a critical remark towards Michelle?

Seems if to me you can't criticize or treat other skaters in a way that you wouldn't be happy to see Michelle treated as.

[Krista]

There are those that love Michelle and that's their main reason for watching skating, those that love Michelle and other ladies skaters as well, and there are those that are jealous of the love that people have for Michelle and want them to somehow come to some "understanding" and "can't we all just get along" level. The people that have a problem with those that love Michelle so much and want them to say they like other skaters have some subconcious annoyance with the fact that they themselves aren't perfect and haven't received acceptance at some point or another, and therefore want people to praise skaters that people may not particularly be drawn to, because it in turn will make them(the poster) feel more accepted. People like who they like, you can't talk them down into liking someone. Might as well stop trying. It gets old.

Just my opinion.

Enough psycho babble from me.

[nymkfan51]

The only thing that bothers me is that clearly there's a "Clique" mentality on this board, and though many people behave in this manner, they wont own up to it. It's definitely like a cool kids at the lunch table...and then there's everyone else...

It present itself as a safe haven to discuss all skaters fairly, in a respectful environment. While many posters practice this philosophy, I would say a little more than the majority of frequent poster do not.

There are clearly skaters that the board has sponsored (not officially of course) as accepted skaters, anyone else is going to be met with harsh criticism, and overall rejection.

and yes it is the way of sport to be competetive, critical, and even sometimes nasty towards rival athlete's, yet if this is the case then why are so many people ready to hang someone who makes a critical remark towards Michelle?

Seems if to me you can't criticize or treat other skaters in a way that you wouldn't be happy to see Michelle treated as.

Why must the posters on this board be continually lectured by you? I can't understand why this thread is still open ... I thought telling others how to post was against the rules.

[Sparks]

Seems if to me you can't criticize or treat other skaters in a way that you wouldn't be happy to see Michelle treated as.
BUTT there are no other skaters like Michelle...she has no equal. :D

The only thing that bothers me is that clearly there's a "Clique" mentality on this board
That's the ONLY thing that's bothering you?
Are you feeling left out?
This is not high school, so using high school analogies are not effective.
Good try though...:P

[youngatheart]

Nathan: "and yes it is the way of sport to be competetive, critical, and even sometimes nasty towards rival athlete's, yet if this is the case then why are so many people ready to hang someone who makes a critical remark towards Michelle?"

Michelle gets plenty of criticism on other skating boards, much of it nasty. Of course we don't like undue critical remarks about Michelle made on this board, afterall, this is the "Michelle Kwan Forum." This is what I call Michelle's "safe house." That said, I do see criticisms made of other skaters on this board, but for the most part they are objective and constructive. JMHO.

[michelle2006]

Michelle gets plenty of criticism on other skating boards, much of it nasty. Of course we don't like undue critical remarks about Michelle made on this board, afterall, this is the "Michelle Kwan Forum." This is what I call Michelle's "safe house." That said, I do see criticisms made of other skaters on this board, but for the most part they are objective and constructive. JMHO.

Oh man, does she ever? The remarks are so vicious and nasty that I come running back to the MKF like you would run back to your mommy. Even YouTube has nasty MIchelle haters, so much so that I have disabled comments on some of my videos. (one poster said MIchelle fell and stumbled around in 03 worlds and should not have gotten 5.9's and 6.0's....:sarcastic :footinmou

I really do see some great stuff on this forum.

[YankeesSuck01]

It is not "expecting a utopia" to think that it is possible for posters
to express strong opinions while still being civil about it.

Civil according to whom? You?

As for this jealousy BS My favorite skater is the one of the most popular and successful skaters of all time. Not liking an Emily or Kimmie's skating being considered as anyone being jealous is absurd .

[gatzbee]

i have to say, there has been criticism aimed at michelle at certain points in the past on THIS board. so lets not say that this is a board where michelle is high in the heavens and everyone else gets hanged. but i mean in the end, this is STILL a skater specific forum. there is a Skating Chat, but it's located at mkforum.net. i really don't understand. some ppl just will not receive as much love on this board, period. i mean most of us love michelle and her skating, so there has definitely been a lot of support for those skaters we feel have hints of her skating reflected in their skating. it shouldn't come as a surprise when many of us are not taken by skating that is not in the same artistic and presentation quality/league as michelle's. and on the flip side, there is still strong support here for skaters like kimmie and emily etc.

if we;re to talk about other skaters, then i'll say this. i LOVE the junior ladies, mirai and caroline. i think they have such wonderful potential, and are a force to be reckoned with. i foresee them as the future stars of FS if they remain healthy and keep improving. i love yu na kim. her style of skating is just great. she's got some things to work on, but i feel like she has the entire package to win. im in love in mao asada's SP this yr, and it really made me see her as a complete skater. her LP is another story. with the men, im rooting for evan and johnny. they both have such diff. styles. out of the current ladies, i like alissa, tho she has consistency issues, and i like bebe, who unfortunately came short of making it to the team this yr. but i found their programs lovely, esp. bebe's. i don't 'hate' emily or kimmie, but im just not as fond of their skating and presentation style. and o yes, i have grown to enjoy sasha's skating too, despite all her glitches, but she is not competing this yr.

[moxie]

Civil according to whom? You?

As for this jealousy BS My favorite skater is the one of the most popular and successful skaters of all time. Not liking an Emily or Kimmie's skating being considered as anyone being jealous is absurd .

1. There are standard definitions for "civil" in every dictionary;
if you wish, just pick the usage that applies to polite discourse (it's generally the second definition).

2. I expressed an opinion that it is possible to express criticism and yet remain civil. I consider this a wish, not a demand.

3. I have never used the words "jealousy" or "jealous" in any of my posts. You have me confused with someone else.

[kwanette]

i have to say, there has been criticism aimed at michelle at certain points in the past on THIS board.

You're wise and pretty.

In the past? Try the past week.;)

You know...I just finished watching the free dance from the 1986 Worlds...The gold medalists, B and B, were, IMO, frenetic...The silver medalists Klimova and Pomerenko were lovely with their beautiful waltzing...and the bronze medalists, Wilson and McCall, blew me away with a dance that would have made Dick Clark proud..Am I a bad person for not liking B and B who worked hard and were nice people? Must I like them?

I'm so kwanfused..

[YankeesSuck01]

1. There are standard definitions for "civil" in every dictionary;
if you wish, just pick the usage that applies to polite discourse (it's generally the second definition).

2. I expressed an opinion that it is possible to express criticism and yet remain civil. I consider this a wish, not a demand.

3. I have never used the words "jealousy" or "jealous" in any of my posts. You have me confused with someone else.

The jealous comments weren't about you. They were mentioned above. I just commented on the comments. The only question I meant directed to you was the first one.

As for civil I know all dictionary's have a definition in them but my definition isn't as straight as yours might be. An example if saying Emily skates like a truck. I see no dis-respect in that comment where you might have a problem with that.

[Lisa Seye]

Ahhh skip it. Nevermind.

[Nathan]

Tell me what's unsupportive about criticizing your favorite skater?

If I were to talk about the Eagles having a weak defensive line, would that make me less of a fan? If this is indeed the Michelle Kwan forum, then wouldn't it also include all aspects of her skating, the good and needs improvement?

I'm sure people that log onto other sports teams fan site aren't going just praise them...

[moxie]

As for civil I know all dictionary's have a definition in them but my definition isn't as straight as yours might be. An example if saying Emily skates like a truck. I see no dis-respect in that comment where you might have a problem with that.

Actually, I don't have a problem with it;
sometimes she does indeed skate like a truck.

We might argue about the model of truck,
but that's another discussion altogether.

[Nathan]

Actually, I don't have a problem with it;
sometimes she does indeed skate like a truck.

We might argue about the model of truck,
but that's another discussion altogether.

And you dont' think it's insulting, rude, and even a little immature to say a skater, ANY skater skates like a truck?

how is that criticizing Emily in a respectable manner?

it sounds like something a HS girl would say about the fat unpopular girl. Again back to my HS clique argument...

[MKGrace]

Even YouTube has nasty MIchelle haters, so much so that I have disabled comments on some of my videos. (one poster said MIchelle fell and stumbled around in 03 worlds and should not have gotten 5.9's and 6.0's....:sarcastic :footinmou


Yikes--that person must be :crazy!! Michelle skated clean programs there.

[moxie]

And you dont' think it's insulting, rude, and even a little immature to say a skater, ANY skater skates like a truck?

how is that criticizing Emily in a respectable manner?

it sounds like something a HS girl would say about the fat unpopular girl. Again back to my HS clique argument...

Well, trucks have a lot of power and are valuable in tough situations.
Nothing insulting about that.
There are some pretty classy trucks around these days.

But yes, of course it would be insulting to use truck references for anything other than her actual skating.

[MKGrace]

I was following the thread of Emily's Skating, and it all came back around to Michelle's skating. Would it be any different if it were a thread about Tara's skating, or Kimmie's skating, or you fill in the blank's skating. Now, I'm a huge Michelle Kwan fan but I am getting a little tired of these threads all coming to the same end.


I think the threads are very different depending on who and whose skating your talking about. There are many different opinions here about a lot of skaters but the common denominator is (supposed to be) Michelle fandom. People can like/dislike whoever they want, even if it doesn't make sense. For example I never cared for Kristi or her skating. Why? Don't know, just didn't. Insane? Maybe, but that's that.

I don't see a problem with negative opinions and comments about skaters, but I do think a firm line should be drawn for bashing and trashing, such as Emily has "tree trunk thighs" and "flabby arms". That's bashing and cruel, and I'm no Emily fan. Such comments should be deleted and/or result in a locked thread.

[Lisa Seye]

Well, trucks have a lot of power and are valuable in tough situations.
Nothing insulting about that.
There are some pretty classy trucks around these days.

But yes, of course it would be insulting to use truck references for anything other than her actual skating.

does not matter how ya say it because there is always someone just waiting to pounce and accuse ya of bashing.

Say skates like a truck and someone says you are talking about her body and weight. So you can say ok then instead of skates like a truck how about heavy and lumbering. Then someone says how unfair it is to pick on her weight. Nowhere in those two references does it say anything about her body, physique, or her weight. They refer to her STYLE only. Some are so sensitive about her weight that they see insults about her no matter what was said. Then they call you bitter and stupid and you must know nothing about skating at all. That is bashing versus comparing skating style to a heavy lumbering truck that has lots of power but no grace.
Well I know what I like and it ain't Emily. AND it has nothing to do with her weight (God give me a body like that and I would be sooo happy), nor does it have anything to do with her sister. It has to do with her style. Audiences and judges liked Irina, too, but I did not prefer her style. That does not mean I know nothing. That means I prefer something else. Some judges put Irina ahead of Michelle and others put Michelle ahead of Irina. Which set of judges know nothing?

[moxie]

MKGrace, thank you for perfectly stating what I have been trying to say!

I'm also with you on Kristi; I could appreciate her technique but I could never really get into her skating.

[berthesghost]

You know...I just finished watching the free dance from the 1986 Worlds...The gold medalists, B and B, were, IMO, frenetic...The silver medalists Klimova and Pomerenko were lovely with their beautiful waltzing...and the bronze medalists, Wilson and McCall, blew me away with a dance that would have made Dick Clark proud..Am I a bad person for not liking B and B who worked hard and were nice people? Must I like them?

I'm so kwanfused..It's quite simple:

John Doe will tell you that yes, you are wrong, that you know nothing about skating, and that "frenetic" is a bash and you should be issued a warning under the patriot act.

Joe Smo OTOH will tell you that you are right, that W&M were always undermarked, and that B&B were overated.

Censorship is about control. The message of this tread is quite clear: "agree with me or shut-up".

[vive_la_reine]

Censorship is about control. The message of this tread is quite clear: "agree with me or shut-up".
Absolutely. The other message is, now that Michelle is "out of the picture" you SHOULD, MUST and BY GOLLY just have to get behind the skaters that are being hyped, otherwise you are a major moron.

Some posters wax poetic about respect and being civil. I find precious little respect or civility afforded to those who are primarily fans of Michelle. We get insulted on a regular basis and no one ever considers it bashing.

[Krista]

Absolutely. The other message is, now that Michelle is "out of the picture" you SHOULD, MUST and BY GOLLY just have to get behind the skaters that are being hyped, otherwise you are a major moron.

Some posters wax poetic about respect and being civil. I find precious little respect or civility afforded to those who are primarily fans of Michelle. We get insulted on a regular basis and no one ever considers it bashing.

EXACTLY!
well said.

[moskva]

let's set the recod straight. i don't ever recall nathan or moxie being disrespectful toward anybody. i don't agree with much of their thinking, but i find it irritating that a gang of irate posters is always at hand to slam them for -what seems like- just posting on the board. i don't remember anyone reprimanding berthesghost for saying emily has trunk-like legs and flabby arms. that's over the board disrespectful. coming to the board and posting appeals to be civil, however irksome it might be to some, is not insulting by any stretch of imagination. even if what moxie posts rings hollow to u by now, it's nowhere near in the same territory as fatuous commenting on a skater's body parts. coming down excessively hard on one and condoning by omission the other is disingenuous, imho

[Krista]

there are many masked ways in which posters make their point known, JUST enough masked that it doesn't break the "faq" but many of us see through it. you can only take so much before it gets annoying and you feel like saying something.

If you have a point to make, good. But when certain posters bait, or make remarks that are intended to be inflammatory towards other posters feelings, ESPECIALLY CONCERNING MICHELLE, that gets old in a hurry. Everyone has a right to their opinion, except for the people that defend Michelle apparently. I guess we'll just have to find our own underhanded masked ways.

I'd say just about everyone has broken the rules in this thread as far as the "don't tell others how to post" though lol. or the "if you don't like a post, ignore it" yeah that went over reallllllll well in this thread :lol

not to mention certain posters have stated THEMSELVES that they consider themselves the board argument starters as if its a badge of honor.

[Nitts]

And you dont' think it's insulting, rude, and even a little immature to say a skater, ANY skater skates like a truck?

how is that criticizing Emily in a respectable manner?

it sounds like something a HS girl would say about the fat unpopular girl. Again back to my HS clique argument...


Nathan,
There are cliques on every board. You, of all people, should know that.

[YankeesROCK]

The kind of conversation that my original comment brought out in this thread just confirms to me that these boards are a waste of my time and intelligence. I'd rather spend my time watching old skating competitions, yes especially of Michelle Kwan, and watch with hopefulness for all skaters, the upcoming Worlds competition. And look forward to what may happen next year and in the future, with or without my favorite skater of all time (MK).

[Krista]

And you dont' think it's insulting, rude, and even a little immature to say a skater, ANY skater skates like a truck?

how is that criticizing Emily in a respectable manner?

it sounds like something a HS girl would say about the fat unpopular girl. Again back to my HS clique argument...

just thought I'd say I have no problem with people saying so and so skates like a truck, etc. its a metaphor, an opinion, and doesn't attack their character.

I DO have a problem with people who attack Michelle's skating, BECAUSE its a MICHELLE fan page. And no, I don't criticize someone I like. If I rooted for a team I may get frustrated, I may make comments to myself, but no I don't criticize my team publicly on a site they visit. They know what they need to work on. And I know what they need to work on. But I'm here to support them. I'm not hear to teach them, because frankly I certainly don't know more than them about the subject.

And keep perpetuating the highschool clique thing, people. I have no problem if you want to make it highschool, but meet me at the power lines and we'll settle it ;)

I'm done now.

[kittyjake5]

The kind of conversation that my original comment brought out in this thread just confirms to me that these boards are a waste of my time and intelligence.

Suprise, surpise another (masked) insult. No further comment

[Heather]

I'm closing this thread because...well, it should be obvious. ;) I'll quote Krista's comment since that pretty much hits the nail on the head.


I'd say just about everyone has broken the rules in this thread as far as the "don't tell others how to post" though lol. or the "if you don't like a post, ignore it" yeah that went over reallllllll well in this thread :lol

BTW, I'm not one to publically discuss warnings and/or bannings, but I'll just say that several posters didn't making it out of this thread (feel free to scan custom titles to find out who.)