Flip or Toe?

[Ji]

I realize I may be in the minority here, but I think Michelle should keep the triple toe in her short program. Yes, technically, the triple toe is not the most difficult, but it's much more consistent than her triple flip. Right now, the judges don't seem to be penalizing her too badly for doing the toe. For example, she did the toe at the Olympics while Tara did the flip and still, Michelle came first in the short program because all her other elements are so superior. So why risk it? I'd be interested to know all of your thoughts on this... Besides which, I think Michelle's triple toe continues to be the best out there, man or woman... Ji

[lavender]

I think it depends. If maria goes 1st and does good then maybe add the flip but if she does bad then I don't think that it is necessary to risk it. I don't necessarily think that michelle change the 3t to a 3f because as long as she is in the top 3 she definitely would have the better chance of winning. But michelle is very smart and she will have to decide what would be best at that time. I wouldn't see nothing wrong with playing it safe in the sp if she chooses because someone as good as michelle is bound to get good scores with a flawless program even with a 3t.

[sw10025]

Apparently, Michelle said at Masters that she will be inserting the 3flip in her SP some time later in the season (probably Grand Prix finals or nationals, whichever comes first). I think she's going to have to switch to the 3flip some time in the future, and she wants to establish it this year rather than later on.

[Karin]

I don't think MK should decide what to do based on a 10-minute-earlier- performance of some other skater!!! It's not good to change your mind last minute!!!...she needs to get her brain...and muscles used to doing whatever jumo she has planned!!! Like in 97 US when she decided to bail outa the 3/3toe...she ended doing the 3/2toe...but it was last minute...not good!!! I think that as the years pass...and Salt Lake comes near...MK will need to up the ante!!!...MK needs to practice doing the 3flip now!!!... MK used to do the 3flip in the sp!!!...back in like 95 worlds...why not give it a try again???

[lavender]

Your right about the 10 minutes before performance karin. Whatever you do in practice should be done in competions(the good things of course). I think michelle and lori will save her best programs for the olympic year.

[Karin]

Hopefully!!!...my all-time faves will always be Rach and Lyra...hopefully...for 2002...Lori, Frank, and MK will top those!!!

[kwanette]

Has anyone ever beaten MK in a sp that she has skated cleanly? I know in 97 and 99 Worlds she made mistakes, but in a clean sp with the 3T can she still win? I think so because of her artistry. I know that by and large she will need 3x3 in the lp...what do you think? Post 95 Worlds where she skated a clean sp and lp and still ended up 4th.

[Karin]

MK has never been beaten when she has skated clean post 95...except somewhere in Japan...and I won't go there...Bitter Karin!!!

[lavender]

I can't wait until you see the short program so that you can tell us what you think about it. Rach, Lyra are my favorites too. Oh yeah, so is romanza. Why are you bitter?

[Willowdale]

I hope MK does 3toe in her sp until 2002. 3flip will probably make her joints weak soon. Plus, I don't want Michelle to be injured again before the 2002 Olympics... I love her 3toe. It is so beautiful!

[Karin]

Willowdale...you have a good point!!!...but still...her muscles have to get used to it!!!...

[Googoo]

You guys really think it would be hard on her muscles or joints to do the 3 flip?? Well in that case I would say forget it of course!!

[sw10025]

Someone posted on the Skate Chat thread that Lori Nichols said in an interview that she thought Michelle would ratchet up the performance at Skate Canada, and it was implied she was talking about the jumps. It'll be interesting to see if she really knows something we don't or if I and others are reading too much into these comments.

[susan ba]

well, while i desperatelt want michelle to do even better techinically, i also really like that she does the 3t. and not for consistency sake either. i like the 3t because she has so much speed and flow with that jump. (while her flip is very fast also, the toe is slightly more free) ate any rate, i love it that they always save the single jump until the end when the music is dramatic and fast paced. to quote mr button, "very exciting".

[muri]

MK needs the 3f if she stays with the 3lut & 2t. Because if I remember correclty Slutskia does a 3lut & 2 loop, plus a harder triple than toe. And I think Slutskia if consistency prevails will be the competitor for MK, not Maria. And also I don't have any faith in the judges, I see too much biased judging, and I think whatever MK can do to give the judges the least excuses to deduct her, the better for her. And like SW said what MK can work on now, let her go for it.

[Karin]

well said...:O)

[Karin]

Is there actually a scientifically proven physiologically effect of the flip on skaters' joints???

[Marco]

Would doing a flip really weaken her joints? But then she does one in her LP anyways... so I think it's not a problem. Although adding in a flip in the sp will assure of the lead if skated cleanly...but even if Michelle does a toe, she might still win coz her other elements are just so much more superior. And even (touch wood!) if she really does get beaten By Irina (!) in the sp, she would still come in second and can still win overall. Coz Michelle has a very strong lp this year and even received a 6 despite a fall! Plus she is the only skater out there I know who can consistently land 6 or 7 triples in the lp...so I think it really doesnt matter about whether she should add in the flip. And plus, the fall on the flip in SA might mean she isnt comfortable with the jump yet. BTW, good luck for SC, Michelle!

[muri]

but Marco, what if MK skates clean at worlds but gets placed in 4th despite the overall supiority of her program, because the 3 skaters in 1,2 & 3rd place did clean 3lut/2t, 2axel, & a harder triple than toe. Then no matter how good she is in the lp her place is dependent on those 3 skaters. I tell you I have no faith in judges, they are politically driven. Look at the judges they found cheating at worlds, did they throw out their marks? No When those judges cheat MK ( I say when because it has happened before & it can happen again), she is cheated, nothing is going to change. So MK has to do what she needs to do and she needs to do it sooner rather than later

[skatingfan]

I think 3f is a higher risk jump, but a jump with more reward. Only Michelle will know when and if she will do a 3f. Why would 3f hurt her joint and muscle more? For a while, I crinched when she goes for 3t, and butterflies, b/c of the left toe pick may potentially reaggrevate the stress fx. About winning sp in olympic v Tara's 3f. Although she won the sp, some reporters speculate that she gave the impression that her jump content is not as strong as tara. And in the lp judges chose to reward tara for her jumps, i.e. giving benefit of the doubt and full credit for tara's 3fz as 3z. IMO, Tara only out speed Michelle in the lp, not out jump. Judges chose to credit tara as if she out jump MK. Folks, I am not trying to spark another who outskate who in olys 98, this is JMHO. With new format for worlds being top 3 in sp, and winning the lp does not guarantee overall win. For example if both Slute and Michelle won the preliminary/qualifying round and place #1, and prelimiary round counts 20%. Bute and Michelle being #1 and 2 from worlds 99 will not meet each other in prelim round. Then in sp, if Slute does her 3z/2l , and Bute has a clean 3z/2t, and clean 2l, and if Michelle has her 3t. And if judges chooses to reward jumps more than anything, then e.g. let us say the placement of sp will be Slute #1, Bute #2, and Mk #3. and sp counts 30%. Then in lp, if MK places #1, Slute #2, and Bute #3. and lp counts as 50%. I believe Slute will end up being world champ. 3f is higher risk but reward is more, and everytime when a skater raises the bar of jump content etc, there is risk. Does Michelle want to skate as if not to lose or skate to win? I think she should put the 3f as soon as she comfortably can. This is not a year to skate not to lose, she has not nothing to lose. When Ito and TH first tried their triple axel, they probably fell a lot of times. It probably took them one year to iron out all the difficulties, b/c competition is different from practice. I think same thing for 3f for Michelle. I think this is the year to put the 3f in, and be comfortable about it in competition for a year. Next year worlds 2001, she must win, b/c all world champ in the year prior to olympics won olympics the subsequent year, e.g. Kristi, Oksana, and Tara.

[Karin]

MK should really do the 3flip...let her own muscles take over so over time so she can do it like the 3toe... MK cannot let the if-they-exist-nationalistic-judges take advantage of her doing a 3toe!!!...she can't change her mind depending on how other do!!! Go MK...be confident...we luv ya...you'll be great!!!

[Googoo]

As far as the SP went in the OLy, Mk probably had higher tech scores because TL flutzed (and they have to deduct for that in the SP) Correct me if I am wrong!

[SJB]

Well, Googoo, I think, as I've been saying about MK's and MB's short programs this year, that the superiority of MK's other required elements over Tara's in the Olympic SP also helped her to win the tech mark. This theory gives me hope that judges in general might reward the best performance of all the technical elements overall, and not just the hardest jumps.

[taf2]

I want Michelle to start using the flip or loop for a different reason-I don't want her to reinjure her toe. The toe & sal are the 2 jumps that hurt her foot the most & she uses them in every exh program & the toe in every sp, plus her 3/3 are toes. I love the single 3toe at the end of the program, but if Michelle does a 3z/3toe in her lp, I don't think she needs another 3/3 to win & I believe she is fully capable of doing this. And since she regularly does all the triples in her lp w/o falling, there is no reason I can think of for her to keep doing the toe in the sp-her flip & loop are as much or more consistant as anyone else's that she will face.