Slightly off topic, but bare with me. . .

[KristiDrop]

This may have been said already, so I apologize if I'm repeating others' comments. . . People, please stop and realize that we are not the only ones who read this board! I'm sure there are many people who lurk here and read this board, so imagine the kind of impression people get when they read some, shall we say not so nice posts about other skaters;o) Regardless of whether or not you may like another skater, remember that tact is always a very good thing to use when posting critical comments of another skater. It seems that mentioning MK and TL in the same breath can be a very touchy subject (as I'm sure we all know;o)) It's certainly alright not to like other skaters/have a differing viewpoint, but extra tact and care is important when posting about these two skaters side by side. . . Okay, I'm sorry if I sounded like everyone's mother:o), I didn't mean to nag, but I just wanted to remind everyone that tact is always a very good thing! And yes, I'll get off my soapbox now and say hi everyone, this is my first post:o)

[SJB]

ITA, KristiDrop, thanks.

[kwanette]

I do think that many people get carried away in defense of their favorite skaters.Oftentimes the defense becomes an attack. On some boards, Michelle's name automatically comes up whenever Tara is mentioned. Same with Maria...To discuss rationally is fine. The post was locked by the time I got to read it. Someday T and M will skate with or against each other...good...MK is in the driver's seat, publicity wide. She competes sick or well, regardless of the comp. Tara is damned if she does...she only goes into those comps she can win or waits to see if Kristi is skating...and damned if she doesn't..or if not she is afraid of losing.These are not necessarily my thoughts but what I have heard or read on forums.The bottom line is , I love Mk and I do appreciate Tara's skating even if she is not my fav.Let's stop the madness......

[sw10025]

Amen, KristiDrop. And you're absolutely right: there are plenty of people who just skulk around these boards looking for a fist fight, and there are all too many of us who either intentionally or not give them an excuse for them. You can run searches on this board, so I'm sure there are at least several people who pounce every time a certain skater's name crops up. In order to avoid a major posting war, remember the following: (1) exercise self restraint. I'm not saying you're not entitled to your opinion, but there's nothing wrong with a little tact and coutesy. (2) don't get personal (3) don't respond to personally directed comments towards yourself, no matter how much you want to (4) don't respond to what you perceive to be factual errors or erroneous opinions, no matter how strong the urge, if it is likely to prolong and ugly argument and keep an annoying topic near the top of the board. you're never going to change anybody's mind -- have they managed to change yours? (5) don't mention any contentious skater's names, not even initials, with @#$ or *** or any searchable variation, because there are folks out there who are just looking for an excuse to have a verbal blowout, and I'm quite certain they are searching for those permutations. Better yet, don't mention that skater even obliquely, because someone will end up using the name, and the trolls will pounce. Don't refer to her at all and they'll get bored and go away eventually. She's irrelevant in any case to anything to do with MK. (6) If you don't like a topic, or a post in a topic, don't respond no matter how much your fingers are itching to do so! You only bump it up to the top of the message board to irritate others. Instead, respond to every other message you choose on the page, and pretty darn soon, it won't be on the first page and will wither away. Kill it by ignoring it!

[Deetlebug]

And just to add my $.02 $.01 - Michelle wouldn't be considered the great skater she is today without the participation of other skaters for her, and everyone else, to be compared to. So let's keep in mind that no one can be the best if they don't have any competition. The fact that other skaters have won over Michelle only makes Michelle's accomplishments, and theirs, that much more valuable. $.02 - Let's try not to say anything on this board that would make Michelle, or any other skater, embarassed to call us one of their fans. That's it for now...... [DeetleBug stepping down off her soap box.]

[Lara F]

I totally agree with everything that's been said here. Let's keep this post bumped up! :-) Lara Michele :-)

[KristiDrop]

btw, jenny, I know this post should probably go under forum feedback, so I apologize for putting it under MK Fan Chat. I figured more people would read it here. . . I know, a bit sneaky of me, lol:o)

[Jenny]

KristiDrop -- In this case, since the post wasn't specifically directed towards me or Heather, I think it's OK that you posted it here. No, it doesn't exactly belong in MK Chat, but it doesn't really belong anywhere else either.... so it really could have been posted anywhere. In any case, I like what you said a lot, so thanks!

[sw10025]

KristiDrop, you did *mention* MK in your post, so you're OK. . . :-)

[LuvMK]

Hey I guess I opened up a can of worms, simply by wanting to express myself in a forum which I thought was dedicated to fans of Michelle Kwan. No intention to bash Tara by speaking factual truths. You may agree or disagree, or interpret the facts differently. Okay, the crack about "broken leg" went a bit far, but why take everything so seriously? My comments were not so much against Tara personally (if you actually read everything I had to say in two of my posts under that thread). It's more the way the media (who largely know zero about figure skating) handled the '98 Olympic coverage, and the way that people are so oversensitive about anything ever said about Tara that might be critical. Even ardent fans of MK will sometimes make criticisms (e.g. the way her leg spiral needed improvement, etc.). There's obviously not much to criticize about MK's personality and the way she carries herself. She has set such a fine example as a skater, and as a human being, that I guess sometimes we might judge others more harshly in comparison. I appreciate the comments of everyone who posted to the thread, and I'm glad to know there are some people who agree and understand what I mean. I stand by my comments. I must say, I was surprised by the amount of people who seem to be ardent Tara fans on this board (and who feel that their opinions are the ones that matter most). I'm actually a skating fan in general, as well as an MK fan -- but I hardly visit any other skaters' boards. I do have other skaters I enjoy watching, of course. Michelle Kwan, by what she has done in the sport, by the person she is, makes skating exciting to watch today. If MK had not been in the sport or had not accomplished what she has so far, the women's field would certainly have to be considered mediocre. A lot of the current and up and coming female skaters have learned a lot from MK, and competitions are improving I think because of that. However, there is still a long way that many skaters have to go before reaching Michelle's overall level. That doesn't mean that she can't be beaten on a given day, but obviously she is rarely beaten. And that's largely because she doesn't get wound up by her competition. She challenges herself, and is motivated to skate her best everytime out for herself and for her audience. What makes MK most appealing, however, is that she is not perfect. She has experienced self-doubts and struggles, but she grew in the process and turned those difficult experiences into triumphs. I was not always a big MK fan. I was one of those who thought she was just a cute little girl with talent. MK's performance at '95 Worlds commanded my attention, but I still thought at that time that Nicole Bobek had the best ability to rise to the top with all of her talent (Obviously, that didn't happen). When MK took the judges' snub in stride at '95 Worlds and came back even stronger in '96 with a completely new look and exquisite programs -- that's when I became mesmerized by her artistry, her technical abilities, and by her courage in the way she performed her long program, Salome -- right after Lu Chen had received some perfect 6.0 scores.

[Liz D.]

Very well said LuvMK!! As you may have read in my other post, I don't think you are bashing Tara. I think you have every right to express your opinion. I notice that some people get very defensive when someone expresses their opinion about a certain skater that they may not agree with. That's why I have to be very careful at what or how I say things.

[6JESSE9]

I really think this Tara-Michelle thing is old... They are so different now... Don't these people realize that we have a Michelle-Maria Rivalry in the brewing... Just kidding!!!!

[KristiDrop]

I really wasn't trying to single any one person out as a basher, etc., I simply meant that there are indeed lots of volatile subjects out there, and to avoid a WWIII, it's best to be careful when addressing "certain":o) topics. Again, I gladly step off my soapbox:o). . .

[Jenny]

LuvMK -- Yes, this is a discussion forum about Michelle and people are welcome to express themselves, but when it comes to Tara & Michelle debates.... it's been done already! Nagano, Tara turning pro.... these things have been discussed to death and bringing them up again and again just causes more problems. I realize that your post stemmed from recent comments that Tara made regarding whether or not she will compete against Michelle again, but I still feel that the whole topic in general is old news... Until the day that Michelle & Tara actually compete together, there's really nothing more to be said/debated that hasn't been said/debated already. You say now that your comments were more directed at the media as opposed to Tara personally, but given the way in which your original post was written, what kind of reaction were you expecting/hoping for? While some of your opinions were based on facts, many were not. For instance, your statement that "Everything has been geared to place Tara in the best possible light" is speculation, not fact. Your statement that "Tara could have competed against Michelle at the World Professionals in 1998" is just false (Tara's contract with CBS prevented her from competing there). And your statement, "You can bet she was not ready to do so -- she would probably cite injuries or other commitments as an excuse" is just ridiculous because who are you, or anyone, to say whether or not Tara was "ready" or what Tara may have done in any given situation? There are several more examples of where you blend opinion and fact together in such a way that is offensive. You are welcome to have your "opinion" about all of these things, but trying to pass certain viewpoints as factual truths when they are not is certainly going to invite a debate, or open up "a can of worms" as you say. That should not be too surprising. BTW, I'm not saying all this to be harsh towards you, and I do see some valid and interesting points in your other posts on that thread, but I just think you could have stated those opinions in a less offensive manner by sticking to the real facts as opposed to half-truths falsely purported to be completely factual based on your own interpretation.

[SJB]

Thanks, Jenny, I very much appreciate your efforts to keep this board a place for civil discussion. MKluv, there are no opinions, facts, or criticisms that cannot be stated with courtesy. So go ahead and express yourself (I'd mull over some of Jenny's statements first), but lack of courtesy only inhibits discussion and free exchange of opinion.

[Karin]

IMO...every person has a different medium, different style of expressing their opinions...some are more honest, some more sarcastic, some more subtle, etc... And IMO...because of this difference...people also interpret others' opinions differently...so I don't think there is any way to stop conflict 100% even if everyone tries 100%... when we are talking about our personal opinions!!!...NOT that I am trying to create conflict here...just expressing my opinion again which is surely not interpreted the same way by all people to the same degree...right???

[sw10025]

Well, LuvMK, why not confine your comments to Michelle and ignore the other skater in question? I thought what you said above about Michelle was great, it was thoughtful, it was a nice tribute to her. Why bring T*r* into the conversation any more? She's in a completely different universe now, and is absolutely irrelevant to anything to do with Michelle from now on, and vice versa. I'm not exactly the most inherently tactful and diplomatic person myself, and I've said some things on this board that people have interpreted as bashing, and I've been finding myself in the last couple of days really reading what I write, thinking about it, and in some cases cutting things that could anger people or give those looking for an argument an excuse to vent bile. All this conflict and fighting does no one any constructive good, and if I can exercise a little restraint and common sense, so can everyone else.

[eilaram]

Random thoughts: There is very thin line between stating an opinion and bashing. Sometimes it is not what you say but how you say it. My english class last year was about evaluating arguments, one of the biggest things is don't insult your audience. People have a right to go to any message board they want to. Why do people think you cannot be a fan of both Michelle and Tara? Some have one as their favorite and the other as one of their favorites. I am sure that some people might have someone else as their favorite (gasp) and are fans of both M&T. Both are talented skaters and it is a matter of personal taste...I like Cherry pie better than Apple pie, but I can still enjoy and talk about Apple pie. Generalizations are bad. I have been to both skater's forums and both have tons of fans none of whom are exactly alike. You cannot change history, no matter how much you try. When I read a post that gets me upset I restrain myself from reply and then I get off the internet. I go about my regular day: I do my homework, I interact with my family and friends etc. And I realize that my day would not have gone any better if I had not read it...in fact my reading it really had no effect on my life. Skating is a sport. I come back the next day and read it again and it causes no reaction in me. At the Olympics Tara was 15 and Michelle was 17. At that age could you handle the media paying attention to your every word and action?

[muri]

LUVMK if by chance you visit this thread again here goes; I still agree with your thread, in fact the scary thing is I could have written it. I believe you were venting your opinion, but nevertheless it was not interpreted that way by others, so move on. It may be unfair that some can vent & not be labeled a basher & others can't due to topic chosen. Girlfriend I know you were hurt & it's almost like your feelings were not considered before you were bashed. At the same time we need to allow Jenny & Heather to do their job, and it has been suggested to drop the topic, so I am going to. I don't know if you'll do the same but whatever you do take care of yourself & thank you for being honest.

[Karin]

nodding my head!!!

[NicoleM]

Jenny, Thank you very much for you post refuting opinions that are passed off as "factual truths". All of your comments were level-headed and fair. I would also like to apologize for posting in the wrong area; as I said in my post under the thread I started, I really didn't know where to post a response to the thread that was closed. I thought if it was wrong, that it would be moved. I also stated that I have only been visiting these message boards for about two weeks. Obviously I'm not grasping all the intricacies of the etiquette. I didn't mean to offend by starting a new thread about a previously closed subject. In my defense, the topic was closed not after the first few (sane) responses, but only after many negative comments had been added (the last few posts equated the name Tara to a four-letter word....how can that be called anything other than bashing?). So even though I didn't know exactly where to respond, I felt compelled to do so anyway. Sorry for the faux pas... To LuvMK: I am sorry if you were offended by my defense of Tara, but I am certainly not sorry that I defended her. In response to your comment about the ardent Tara fans on this board, who feel their opinions are the ones that matter most, I think that is directed at least partially towards me. So I'll address it. Yes, I admit, I most definitely am an ardent Tara fan! Wooo, I said it....is someone going to lock me up now? Is it a crime? First degree admiration of a skater who isn't Michelle? :-) Seriously, just because I'm a big fan of Tara's doesn't mean that I think my opinions matter most. This is only my second post on the subject. But I do have strong opinions, as do you, so I think you can understand that. Here's something you might find surprising, since it seems people in general find it to be impossible. I'm also an ardent fan of Michelle's! Hard to believe, right? Really, it's hard for me to fathom that so many people can't be fans of both of them. I just can't understand it, because they are both so darn awesome! How lucky was the U.S. to have these two going into Nagano? Everyone knew that all the other skaters would be battling for bronze, because Michelle and Tara would have the first two spots locked up! I suppose it was kind of arrogant on the part of the U.S. media and skating fans alike, but it turned out to be true. I know that either or both girls could have skated badly, but we all knew how these talented skaters could handle their most important competitive moment; they are the very definition of grace under pressure. Finally, in a gesture of good will, I would like to take the opportunity to tell you which of your comments I totally agree with: 1.) everything you said about Michelle, 2.) the fact that you thought Nicole would be the one to rise to the top first (so did I), and 3.) the fact that the media knows little about figure skating. P.S. Since you are a skating fan in general, you might want to peek at other boards from time to time. Especially since you feel some people are "oversensitive about anything ever said about Tara that might be critical". I probably fall into this group, and if you check out some other boards, you may see why. There is a lot of Tara bashing on various boards, so those of us who like her are extremely overprotective and defensive of her; we feel the need to be. People even stop by Tara's own message board to bash her, probably just to set her fans aflutter and see how quickly and vigorously we will jump up to defend her. Maybe they get a kick out of it.... I really don't know. One thing I have noticed is that if someone makes a questionable comment about Michelle on Tara's board, the backlash is as fast and furious as if the comment were made about Tara. I have only been checking the board for 2 weeks, so I don't know the history before that. I'm just stating what I've found since I've been there. I also defended Rudy on Tara's board once, though I wasn't sure whether or not he was being bashed. I guess my point is that I will pretty much defend any skater from what I perceive as bashing, because I like every skater! So if that's annoying, at least you'll know why I do it! Anyway, I do respect your right to your opinions, and I could see from your last post that you were attempting to be less inflammatory and more fair, which was greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot for reading this post that is way too long! (Oh gosh, I've probably breached more message board etiquette that I'm not aware of! Sorry!)

[SJB]

NicoleM,     Thanks for your polite post above, with comments about both Michelle and Tara well and courteouly expressed. BTW, you might want to check out the "1998 Olympics" thread, which has "degenerated" (just kidding!) into first a discussion of the weirdness of how liking both MK and TL (or at least not bashing one or the other) seems to be inflammatory to some people, and now into the decision that in the future, bashing will not be our preferred choice of weapons. Instead we have substituted Zamboni drag races and lightsaber duels (not kidding!:)

[NicoleM]

Thanks for the support. And also for the suggestion to check out the "1998 Olympics" thread, which I did. The only thing I can say is, don't hold it against me if I misspell in this post, because I'm laughing too much to type! P.S. I don't know who I'd want to be in this, but I definitely want to be wielding a double-edged lightsaber! Maybe while driving a zamboni in drag....

[sw10025a]

SJB, degenerated? I mean the thread in the skating chat section has gotten way, way, and irretrievably off topic, but degenerated? We may have gotten a little crazy and over the top, but we were all unfailingly polite and well mannered when we threatened to take out the opposing side with zambonis and lightsabers. :-) swObiWan

[skatingfan]

I join in this thread rather late, I guess on purpose, I did not opent this thread until now. Kristidrop, thanks for a good topic. So I will try to be polite and have good manners. LUVMK - I appreciate your honest posts, it is not easy to be honest about what you really think re: a heavy topic. I hope you continue to post here. I support you. Nicole - I apologize for not reading every single detail in your messages. There are points that I do not agree with you, but we do not have to agree on everything, like KristiD said, we just have to be polite and considerate. I did not read every thing in your messages, b/c I train my eyes to give messages quick scans, and any message on MK chat that mention another skater more # of times than MK, I just speed read. So, nothing against your idol, or one of your idols tara. I appreciate that everyone is taking this discussion to skating chat under another thread , and seems to have a lot of fun, nice and thanks. I always say, it is wonderful to have fans who like both skaters, although I am not one of them. I conclude with peace to everyone. Skatingfan- I am bowing out of this thread.

[kwanette]

Nicole, I think your post was nicely and logically stated. It's nice to have you posting here..stick around. We're really nice people....skatingfan, LOL, in fact it's the first and the best laugh I 've had all day..."I'm just not one of them." Your honesty took a leap off the screen and hit me in the face. I apologize, but I just loved the way she stated it....Not saying I agree...though those of you who read my very restrained posts...might think otherwise.LOL, again.....

[NicoleM]

skatingfan... No need to apologize for not reading every detail in my post before commenting on it. I am notoriously long-winded both in speaking and especially in writing. I once exasperated an English teacher so much she finally asked me, "Is there any way that you can write a paragraph that isn't two pages long?" I think if she had only possessed your scanning capabilities, she would have lasted the entire school year. (And probably never would have had to flee to the sanitarium...) Anyway, I would like to clarify one point. I did say that I am an ardent fan of Tara, as well as Michelle. But I never brought up the word idol. Not to pick apart your post. I just wanted to be clear on this, because though I adore both Michelle and Tara, neither is my idol. That title is reserved only for....(drumroll): Nancy Kerrigan. My hero! I figured as long as I'm being called on idolizing someone, it may as well be the correct skater! :-)

[NicoleM]

kwanette, Thanks for the nice words. Most people don't call me logical, so I'll print that out. When someone calls my logic into question, I shall repel them with your comment about my post being "logically stated". (OK, maybe with that and my lightsaber...). :-) I don't think you should apologize for laughing at skating fan's comment. She's just admitting she doesn't care for both skaters. Nothing wrong with that. I thought it was funny, too. And I'm not about to apologize! :-)

[SJB]

Hey, just kidding, swObiWan! Please don't challenge me to a light saber duel (I'd lose big time):) I was pointing out that, while most threads on the 98 Olympics or MK + TL are usually accused of degenerating into arguments, that one has "degenerated" into a very fun discussion/fantasy/whatever, in which everyone is showing a very friendly spirit. In fact, a model for future contentious topics to degenerate into. I'm definitely going to try to keep my future degenerations in that thread's vein, and not the bashing model.

[sw10025]

SJB, I didn't challenge you specifically to a duel! Come on over to the right side of the Force, and help me battle RCL and her villanous minions!!!