Does anyone else think people are overreacting about GPX Fin

[Ice Butterfly]

After watching the GPX Finals and reading all the comments (esp. on FSW) about Michelle and Irina, I'm starting to go crazy. Let me say that I like both Michelle and Irina and I think they are both great competitors and great people. I'm just think people are getting a little too hysterical over this whole thing. If Michelle heard any of this discussion she would probably have a nervous breakdown! I'm concerned for Michelle too, but I don't think this was a major disaster for her. So what! She came in second place. This is not the end of the world. I commend her for tackling school and maintaining her competitive edge and so what if she has one "less than par" performance. I never thought Michelle was unbeatable and on the same hand, I don't see Irina as unbeatable either. They both work hard and it just happened that everything "clicked" for Irina that night. Michelle still has the capability to regain her National and World titles, and if she doesn't than oh well - I still love watching her. It's kinda like watching Dorothy Hamill skate, no matter how old she is or even if she doesn't have any triple jumps she is still wonderful! I have a hunch, that Michelle probably isn't too concerned about this and knows that she could do better but she gave it her all and that's all that matters!

[littleone4eva]

Totally, I think some people are overanalyzing the situation. I still consider Michelle to be "the one" to beat in the eligable ranks. Sure, she got out-jumped at the GPF by Irnia. Michelle was exhausted (my fave part was after her last 3 lutz... she showed the *spark* and speed she didn't have during most of the routine). Irnia won, Michelle got the silver. It's that simple. Michelle is human!! She's gonna make mistakes... she can't stay at the top of the figure skating world forever (but hopefully, she will stay up for a long time!)... IMO, though, Irnia's performance at the GPF is like Michelle's 98 Nationals.

[thumpers]

I don't think it's a big deal at all. I was so happy for Irina because I love to see a skater that has been at it for years finally get their props! But most of all I know Michelle is not that upset by taking 2nd place. She's come a long way from being crushed by not taking home a gold medal at every comp and we all KNOW from past experience that she'll be back for more!!

[kuchana]

Hmm...well maybe some of us might have overreacted but we can't help that because we're MK fans!!~:) I for one was so disappointed that MK got 2nd...even though Irina skated just fantastic...but...being that MK was my fav skater I was rooting for her all the way..and was surprised that she got the silver..I really thought that she'd win gold because I didn't think Irina's prog was as artistic but I knew that she was going to get higher marks in technical...and MK would win in artistery...well guess I was wrong...but it was definitely Irina's night so I'm happy for her,too.I just hope this motivates MK to do her best at Nat'ls and Worlds!~ GO MK!~:)

[skatingfan]

It may be ovrreacting, but Michelle is the skater who commands the most attention from skating fans. For me, it is really not her placement that I care about, but her happiness. I am surprised to see how thin she looks, and maybe I over react to that.

[Rene]

I think most people concerns are that she may be overextending herself. Alot of people thought she looked too thin(I didn't) too tired(I did) and maybe a little stressed out. Most people would rather have her healthy and happy in 2nd than Stressed and tired in 1st. It seemed to me anyway the concern was more for Michelle than 2nd place. JMO.

[Gentle]

I wouldn't be too concerned now unless Irina beats Michelle for hmmm..say 3 times in a row. Look at how many times Michelle has beaten Irina in the last few years? hmmmm about 20 times!??! Calm down people. LOL

[GinnySmith]

I don't have anything to add. I totally agree with you....

[Schmeck]

It's all the media's fault ;) If someone on tv would have explained the craziness of the whole 'stupor final', about having the first two program results erased, etc, and emphasized how well Michelle did (or even showed it on tv, imagine that!) maybe the casual skating fan would have a clue or two about how well Michelle skated - and how she won a normal Grand Prix final, and lost a stupid made-for-tv gimmicky thing that was cheesier than most pro competitions!

[XPEG]

I agree with Gentle; we don't have a problem here unless Michelle loses several times in a row to Irina. This is the first time since the Olympics that Michelle has lost a competition (not counting Worlds when she was sick). And technically, if the format had been a normal won, she would have won. This exhaustion thing could be a problem. If Michelle doesn't get herself fit for competitions, she'll be in trouble. Exhaustion as a reason for losing is just as bad as poor technique. As an elite athlete, being prepared to perform not only includes knowing your program, but being fit to perform it.

[sw10025]

I absolutely agree that people have blown this one loss, way, way out of proportion and attributed Irina with herculean jumping and consistency powers that she doesn't necessarily have, and discounted the affect that nerves and her high risk strategy could have on her. Look at it another way, look at the history of the women's worlds even over the past couple of years. Maria lost several major comps including the GP final last year and she still won worlds. Michelle lost Olympic gold in 98 and still won worlds. Tara lost all but one eligible competitive event she entered in 98 *except* the Olympics -- she won the most coveted fs prize despite the fact that she had won only a single real event all season and had been absolutely humiliated by losing to a relative nobody. The first half of the 97 season was winless for Tara, but she took home the 3 best prizes she could have by the end of it. Lulu had been skating poorly for basically all of the 96 season, and yet she scored very closely and took 3 judges away from Michelle, who had been blowing away everyone in sight. As for the exhaustion, doing the Japan Open was a mistake, particularly when the two events were so far apart geographically and she has the added stress of school having started. I know she likes going to Japan, but I really hope next year she does NHK instead and forgets any events that close in time to the GP final.

[AYS]

There does seem to be this wave of opinion that Irina is now an unbeatable jumping goddess and Michelle is a has-been who has no chance of winning worlds unless Irina *royally* screws up. Yes, I think there has been a bit of an overreaction here. I also think D!ick B. giving Irina the nod on artistry was a bit of an overreaction to that performance, but an awful lot of people seem to agree with him. I must be really missing something here.

[Deetlebug]

Three cheers for the calm voices of reason!!! I couldn't agree more. Just an aside about the "exhaustion". Michelle has been looking delightfully happy, rested and energetic at the comps she's been in this year since school started. So let's not get carried away with how she looked on one night. Maybe she was tired, I'll give you that, but not exhausted. I've been through exhaustion and it's not pretty. I was so exhausted that just walking down the hall from my job to my car (about 50 feet) would leave me winded and shaking. I didn't notice Michelle struggling more than normal for air after her performance and the fact that she kicked into high speed after her second triple lutz would also indicate that she's really doing okey-doky. I think the impression of exhaustion that she left us with is really attibutable to her eye makeup (the close up before she skated showed a color that made her look like she had dark circles around her eyes), the camera's natural distortion of colors, Frank's feelings about the ridiculousness of the GP format and possibly Michelle's own feelings about the ridiculousness of the GP format. Also, as for the weight issue, Michelle doesn't have anything to lose except muscle and if she's losing that then she wouldn't pulling off these programs at all. It seems to me that her costume from last season fit her just as well as it did last season, without any significant drooping or looseness. And lastly - Michelle didn't seem to be terribly concerned with whether she was first or second. She seemed to be enjoying the time with Irina more than the comp., so I'm not worried at all. I'm really proud of BOTH Michelle and Irina. Way to go girls - can't wait to see both of you at Worlds!!!

[sw10025]

If Michelle was "exhausted" or "tired" or "fatigued" or whatever semantic you want to attribute to it, it was probably because of (1) the new format; and (2) travelling to the Japan Open and back and to Europe within a short amount of time and not school. UCLA would have only been back in session for about two weeks, and before that she'd had a couple of weeks of vacation, so I really doubt she was worn out from studying. Perhaps there was a "mental fatigue" factor involved -- its got to be hard to stay focused and lay down three really good performances, much less with two of them less than 2 hours apart. As for the weight loss issue, I didn't notice that her outfit looked any looser than it had before, but then again, I've often noticed that how big or small a skater looks can really be affected by the camera angles and close ups. Also, rather than losing weight, she might simply have had the garment altered. Maybe it was a little too tight or restrictive for comfort -- I sew, and the piece of fabric going across her chest to keep too much cleavage from showing (right under the two sections that are pulled up her torso and connect behind the neck) looks very stiff, and probably has some boning or reinforcement in it to keep its shape and keep it in place. Boning is very uncomfortable and restrictive, and she might have wanted a little more room for her lungs to expand while breathing. The one other thing I'd like to add is that I'm *so* glad that thus far, Michelle and Irina seem to have a much more mature and friendly relationship than most competitors do, and that they genuinely seem to respect each other's talents and abilities. I seem to recall there was an incident at worlds a couple years back (maybe 98?) where MK and IS either collided during a practice or nearly collided and that afterward they were joking about it with the press and faking taking boxing jabs at one another. It was pretty funny, and I fervently hope this mood and conduct continues thru 2002.

[Karin]

sw...I remember that too!!! It was 98 Worlds practice for exhibition...MK was even in her 2nd DP dress!!! Irina and her were so cute!!! REMEMBER 98 U4??? MK and IS in the backstage???...they gave that each other that look??? Hee hee!!!

[rcl]

SW - Tara won the Champion Series Final in 98 - she wasn't winless going into the Olympics.

[chinadoll]

michelle skated well. she didn't "crumble" or have a disastrous skate or anything like that. i am not worried about her. i'd just say that it was irina's night.

[AYS]

Just for exactness, I believe Tara won both of her Champion Series finals in '97, although the second one was for the '97-'98 season - it was held early that year because of the Olympics.

[rcl]

Ays - yes I forgot that - thanks for the clarification.

[sw10025]

Oops. RCL, you're right. I always go back and read my posts after they go through, but my first edit to correct that error never went through (I've been having problems with my posts for a couple days now. Sorry.) AYS, I'm not quite sure what you're saying about two GP events. I distinctly remember Tara came in 2nd at SA and Lalique, was Tara in a 3rd GP event during the 98 season (other than the final) that I've forgotten or wasn't televised? My inaccuracy aside, my point was that all of the ladies who have been world or Olympic champions in the past five years have lost major competitions, some of them immediately preceding their greatest triumph, not just Michelle.

[Karin]

it was the 97/98 season...if I'm not mistaken...a new fs season starts in the autumn... SA, SC, etc...take place before the new year!!!...

[rcl]

That's correct SW - just because a skater loses this or that doesn't mean they can't triumph at the big ones. Look at Kristi Yamaguchi - I believe she finished 2nd to Tonya Harding at the 92 Nationals and went on to win the Olympics. Michelle could get upset at 2002 Nationals and still win gold - Tara didn't win 98 Nationals and won Olympic gold. Finishing 2nd at the GPF with 2 years left until the Olympics is nothing to panic about.

[AYS]

Just so no one stays confused...heehee! I was just pointing out to rcl, who pointed out to you that Tara was the winner of the Champion Series going into the Olympics, that that competition was not in '98 as he/she stated (usually the finals *are* held sometime after New Years), but was held in December '97. Therefore, although she won the final 2 years in a row, both victories came in '97. You are correct in that she did not win any regular GP events in the Olympic season. Got it? I *think* we're all in agreement here anyway as to the important point,LOL.:-)

[Beth2000]

I think everyone is right. I think we are all overreacting, but can you blame us? I mean we all love MK and we all want the very best for her. I didn't realize the places that MK had gone to before the GPF, that just makes me tired thinking about it. MK knows what she did or didn't do and she knows what she has to do, so we can all relax and breath easier, MK has it all under control!

[SJB]

Michelle will, in fact, not win the gold from time to time over the course of her career. Why? Statistics. As with any skater, the odds of MK winning every competition that she enters from now until the grave are very close to zero. That's because, as with any skater, sometimes Michelle will fall, make a mistake, have an off day, or just have someone else skate better. This doesn't happen too often with Michelle, but it is statistically overwhelmingly likely to periodically occur. So when it does, as with any skater, there is no reason to take it as a grave omen of serious portent for the rest of her career. As long as she's skating well enough to be satisfied with her performance and her competitiveness, she is on the right track. So, the next time she does not win the gold (and yes, it will inevitably happen sometime, and it could be in any competition, important or trivial), I will not be shaken to the core. If the press chooses to take every instance that Michelle does not win a gold as an occasion to rush forward with stories about her failing abilities and the end of her career, I will certainly not be paying attention to them.

[Kiana]

I still think that Michelle is the "best" skater on the Olympic eligible ranks. Irina won the Grand Prix because she landed a 3Lutz/3Loop combination. That has never been done by a women. May I remind you that she also landed a 3Salchow/3Loop also. The judges had to give it to Irina. Please remember that Irina did not think she was going to beat Michelle. She decided to "go all out" for it because she could not get any lower than second place due to the new Grand Prix Final format. I doubt if she will try that combination at Worlds. It would be too risky.

[GinnySmith]

Karin--I remember seeing Michelle and Irina colliding in practice. In fact, I have it on video! Michelle got the worst end of it but was not injured. Irina skated back over to her to make sure she was OK. They were shown laughing about it later. I really like the rapport between these two. It is so fun and refreshing! : )

[TaraLover]

It may be comforting to think it's always a fluke when someone beats Michelle, but it's usually not. I heard that Irina's scores were very close to Michelle's in the first two programs of the GP Final, and that's without the 3lutz-3loop and 3sal-3loop. Some of the skaters out there can beat Michelle, so you're going to be disappointed if you always think she's going to win.

[sw10025]

AYS, that's what I *thought* you meant, but I wasn't sure. I always refer to competitions by the year worlds will take place (i.e. the 1998-99 season as the "99 season") just so I don't get confused like that. RCL, maybe I'm wrong again, but wasn't it Skate America Kristi lost to Tonya during the 92 (1991-1992) season? I thought that the US national results in 1992 were 1. Yamaguchi; 2. Harding 3. Kerrigan. I seem to recall that Kristi had a clean skate, even landed her 3salchow perfectly for a change, and the only thing that went wrong during her LP was that her hair bow fell on the ice and Peggy was worried she was going to trip on it. I'll have to check my videotapes...

[rcl]

Yikes - you're right SW. I checked the USFSA archives. Kristi won the 92 Nationals. It was Skate America that she finished 2nd to Tonya. Sorry about that - even an Evil Death Star Captain can make a mistake now and then.

[Jennis]

Frankly, I'm just thrilled that Michelle finally skated a major event without falling down. To me, that's a major accomplishment! Personally, that had to be very satisfying for her.

[cosifan]

I have to say that it is extremely unfortunate that they used this bizarre format for the GPF, which everyone takes as a real marker for the Worlds. As this year's event proved, it is not a marker for worlds--all the results were completely topsy turvy except for the men, because Evgeny Plushenko, although a phenomenal skater, strikes me as a complete maniac. As someone else pointed out, Michelle won the *regular* portion, but did not have enough steam or enough practice on her Arianne program to beat Irina. I really think if I were her, and as her fan, I would concentrate on the fact that she did win with both of her regular programs. I would like to see Michelle stretch her style and physical abilities even more as a skater, but I think she is trying to do that, school (which will eventually be important in keeping her from peaking before 2002) is just slowing it down. Anyway, just remember: the media spends a lot of time reacting to each result as if it were set in stone. Yet, as each competition shows, and as Michelle seems to know, every competition is completely up for grabs and anything can change.

[Beth2000]

Taralover I have been coming here for awhile and I have been reading your posts. Do you not have anything better to do then bash MK? If not then PLEASE get off of this board and go back to the Tara board. If Tara was standing there do you think she would be happy with the way you are bashing MK? I don't think so, she would be upset with what you are doing. I am not trying to fight with you or anything of that nature but the people that come here are fans of MK, and if you are not a fan of MK then keep your remarks to yourself.

[skatingfan]

Beth, I sometimes think it is a waste of our time to try to make sense out of this. I would never understand why fan(s) of another skater, who obviously do not like MK will come over here. I never go to that skater's site, which BTW is an official site. But the internet is free to anyone. MK forum is organized by people who love MK, this is not www.michellekwan.com, no super fans who are buddies with MK or part of her inner circle. I guess we just have to keep our best effort to stay calm, keep our blood pressure down. So if the visitor from that exclusive golf club comes here to our humble community golf course, and brings along his/her golf cart, caddies etc, and make a mess and do not replace the divots we will just have to tolerate. Sure would be nice if the visitor do not put down what we think is beautiful golf or what is the standard of excellence though.

[Rene]

Ignore it and it will go away. How boring would it be for *it* if nobody fought back?

[Beth2000]

It is so hard to ignore, when all that person does is bashing. I try to ignore but it is hard. I have always liked MK and feel like it is our job to protect her. I wondered what MK would think if she saw that!? It would probably hurt her feelings and she would probably want to go crawl under a rock.

[mano]

Check his/her profile by clicking on his/her name. I've never seen him/her in the TL board either so I'm thinking this person just wants to ruffle a ton of feathers here on MKF. Just make like a Duck and quack. RCL, NicoleM et al have been wonderful and offers insightful info here on MKF.

[Rene]

but just look at it this way Beth 2000, *it* is getting what *it* wants if you argue with *it*. Michelle would probobly say...WHATEVER. When really stupid things are brought up against Michelle with no merit at all, it doesn't bother me as much, because it's so ridiculous. Saying Michelle has never been #1 or Irina's spiral is better than Michelle's, is like me saying "Tara couldn't do a 3loop/3loop to save her life" or "Michelle has blonde hair". *It* just pulls things out of thin air to "ruffle your feathers", as Mano has pointed out.

[NicoleM]

If you guys aren't too busy waging war could you double check the '92 Nationals results? My memory has Nancy finishing second to Kristi there, and Tonya barely making the Olympic team in third. As a huge Nancy fan, it's possible that I was just remembering events as I wished them to happen. But I don't have a tape of it, so I thought that if you guys do, maybe one of you could check it. Otherwise, I'll have to look for the answer myself. And I am very lazy since I turned to the dark side. I have no ambition to do anything but be evil, so I hope one of you knows the answer to this!

[AYS]

1992 US Nationals 1-Kristi Yamaguchi 2-Nancy Kerrigan 3-Tonya Harding

[sw10025]

My apologies NicoleM, I know you're a big Kerrigan fan, and I would never deliberately do anything to upset you. I remembered that Kristi had won 92 nationals, but I couldn't remember what order Nancy and Tonya finished in, so I assumed RCL was off by one place on Tonya's finish, rather than two.

[NicoleM]

AYS, Thanks very much for the clarification. Now I know I'm not going senile as early in life as I thought. I feel so much better! :-) sw10025, No apologies necessary. I am just overly sensitive where Nancy is concerned (and Michelle, and Tara, and Maria, etc....LOL)! Seriously, I just thought that she had a full set of U.S. Nationals medals: '91 bronze, '92 silver, '93 gold. So I was just wondering. :-)

[AYS]

"she had a full set of U.S. Nationals medals: '91 bronze, '92 silver, '93 gold" Not only that, she had a 4th in '90 and a 5th in '89. All to go along with an Olympic bronze in '92 and silver in '94. Maybe she should have stayed in for '98 - heehee.

[rcl]

Don't forget her World bronze in '91 and silver in '92.

[AYS]

...and what should have been World gold in '93, had she not had one of the biggest long program meltdowns in the history of worlds.

[rcl]

Yeah and that meltdown cost at the Olympics the next year - the judges don't forget that stuff.

[sw10025]

Oh, not that I'm trying to be contentious or anything, but I think the doubled flip in the LP cost her more than the LP meltdown from 93 worlds...

[AYS]

Not only that! Even worse, that meltdown cost MK a chance to skate in Lilliehammer (since it cost the US ladies a spot) :-(

[sw10025]

If anyone needs a reminder why we should all put less angst into worrying over and emphasis upon winning, placements and medals, go take a look at Shallah's thread in Skating Chat re an article, "Skating Judge Alleges Backroom Deal in Olympic Medals". Its a timely reminder that not only are some judges ignoring/bending the rules, ill-informed, subjective, or displaying national bias, but there is a good amount of political jockeying and deal making that may be going on behind the scenes. I'm not saying its the case in this instance, but we should all bear this in mind in the future. . .