Glad to see that skating hasn't sunk this low....

[Ziggy Stardust]

I was so happy and relieved last night when Michelle regained her title. It wasn't the best skate ever, but I'm happy that she had the self-confidence to pull through. MK didn't seem really pleased will herself when the marks came through, and I think this was a real wake call for her. Most of all, I was so happy to see that this competition wasn't solely a jumping contest. Remember Carlo Fassi? I think he was right when he said that skating is turning into gymnastics; that the jumping beans are taking over. I am not in any way bashing Sasha Cohen, however, if she had won the National Title, then I believe that figure skating would have reached an ultimate low. Maybe, I'm over reacting, but I know that I don't want my country to be represented by a young girl. I know she's 15, but she looks like she's 10. I know this doesn't affect her skating, but this is a sport for women, not little jumping beans. In this sport, your name and reputation has a strong affect on your skating. I mean remember, the '95 Nationals? Michelle skated the best programs there, but she didn't even medal! She was only 14 there. Alot of it has to be with waiting your turn. Michelle is a beautiful women, inside and out. Her skating is mature and sophisicated. The jumping beans can't compare to that.

[galadrielle]

Please take my reply for its face value and no hard feelings? I hardly think Sasha Cohen and her fellow band of munchkins justify the "jumping bean" moniker. Sasha and NNN (especially NNN) are not the strongest jumpers out there. MK's Nationals debut featured a 3/3. These little ladies don't even attempt that. NNN doesn't even have a reliable triple lutz! What gladdens my heart the most about the ladies scene in USA today is the fact that the ones coming up are so aesthetically driven. I'd like to call it the MK effect. Now there's a legacy for MK to be proud of. MK came on the scene when skaters such as Harding and Kerrigan, neither skaters who set the world on fire with their presentation skills, were still on the scene. And this little person was striving on the ice for something beyond just "getting through the elements". She did 3/3 to be sure, but what set her apart from pedestrian skaters, for me, was the fact that she emoted on the ice. And what did she get for it? She got told to wait her turn, that she's not a MATURE skater, that she didn't LOOK old enough to be a champ. I thought that was unfair. MK was good. MK had a precocious "presence" on the ice. I think it's unfair to call skaters jumping beans just because they are young. It's not a crime to be young. I don't think skaters should be penalized for their age but be judged by what they put out on the ice. I thought so when MK was coming up in the ranks and I still think so now. Good skating is good skating, regardless of the size or age of the package it's delievered in. p.s. I think Andrea Gardiner got a raw deal because of her advanced (cough) years. Her scores didn't read as a fair assessment of her abilities on the ice to me but a sign of discouragement. She sure looked to me as a woman on the ice, so why did her marks seem to me suspiciously low? Michelle is a beautiful woman, it's true. And her skating is very sophisticated. She's been remarkably mature even during her "jumping bean" days. But you know what I consider to be her best performances? (sophisticated, intricate, mature, etc ...) Salome, Desdemona, Taj -- her earlier works I thought it KICKED BUTT when MK made people who tried to dismiss her as too young and immature EAT THEIR WORDS at Worlds '95 and especially '96. The Sashas of today are only following in MK's footsteps. Let's not berate them for being young but treat them better than MK was treated when she was their age. I have too much respect for MK's talents, longevity, tenacity, GUTS, and [/b]heart[/b] to want to see her get by on her seniority. That's not what Michelle is all about. If anything, she'll stay around long enough to make people EAT THEIR WORDS AGAIN, about her old age. Sorry it got kinda long, but I hope I'm making sense. I am not trying to change your outlook but only trying to clarify where I stand, and hopefully making a case for athletes being judged for their abilities regardless of age, size, reputation, and other superficialities. It just seems the fair and right thing to do?

[SJB]

Michelle completed more triples (six) than any of the "new young competitors" during the long program. Sarah & Sasha did five, Naomi, I believe, only two. So, no, I don't think that the media's designation of these new talents as "jumping beans" is very accurate. Sarah's the only one, IMO, who is close to being a really good jumper--that 3/3, for example. But, I believe that even she still has problems with her lutz. These young skaters are extremely talented, and I'm sure we will only see them getting better over the years. And Ziggy, you are right that this competition was *not* (thankfully) just a jumping contest. The technical marks, for example, show that the judges were taking other aspects of technique into consideration. And the presentation--I think that that was well and truly judged also. So, I also wish that the media would stop calling young skaters "jumping beans" or any other diminutives, and call them what they are--very talented young competitors.

[susan ba]

ziggy: i don't think that if sasha had won that i would have thought skating was sinking to some sort of "low". that's an insult to sasha. i would have been so upset if mk hadn't won....i thought she deserved it based purely on her performance... but sasha did a fantastic job. it's not like sasha has no skills other than jumping. an it's not bad to be a jumping bean...it's only bad if that's all they do and they are rewarded for it. i agree that sasha didn't compare with mk but it's not like sasha was a dud. sarah, who might be considered a jumping bean, while still not at mk's level, is very sophisticated for any age. Gala: i agree with many of the things that you have written. i think you express your sentiments well. having said that though, i do disagree about the judges discouraging andrea. they put her in the top six after the short and moved her to 5th in the final standings. while i think andrea has tons more charm than angela, she still doesn't have the same kind of energy that sasha has or the sophistication that sarah has. anrea two footed her second lutz (like sasha) but didn't complete a 3f... a jump harder than the 3t that sarah(?) and sasha fell on. and her 3s had that high wide swing. sasha had similar trouble but the quality of her jumps were better (but that's nit picking because both had good jumps overall) and we won't even get started on Andrea's flexibility compared to the others. but on one last note, i thought andrea should have been above angela... and perhaps the ordinals had them split between the two. (which i didn't get to see yet.) however... andrea was named to the four continents team... the equivalent of europeans for the northern continents i think

[galadrielle]

Glad to know Andrea will get to compete in 4CC. That's an important international meet, and it's good to know she'll get the experience and the exposure. I do agree that Angela should have been placed above her. I don't disagree with the ordinals. What I don't agree with, however, is the numerical scores. Andrea's scores (2-3 judges esp.) were too low, IMO. It smacked of artificiality in the sense the judges were trying to make it easier to separate the frontrunners from the ones behind. Angela's numerical marks, too, were somewhat low. It was a bit much for me. On the whole, some individual numerical scores of US Nationals left me wondering, and not just in the ladies competition, either. I know I'm being nitpicky but I can't help looking at these skaters who worked all year long to showcase themselves (esp. the lower ranked ones like Andrea, and perhaps even Matt Savoie) and not feel a sense of disappointment along with them looking at some of the *really* low individual scores. Especially compared to the SIX O given to Michael Weiss. Very strange, if you ask me. Makes me wonder.

[iceangelic]

After all that's been said and done, all I can say is that Michelle has pretty much sealed and provided a standard for all little girls to follow and that is: Be a total package.

[CaptCanada]

Michelle didn't do triple-triples at her first Nationals...she didn't do one until 96, and that was slightly two-footed. To be fair, she already had her full arsenal of triples though. NNN, Sasha can in no way be considered jumping beans...did you see how NNN self-destructed in the LP on the flips and lutzes? There are far more compelling reasons than just jumps that Michelle placed ahead. Even tense, yet listless, as she was...she is so much more secure, controlled, and powerful a skater than Sasha. Sasha looks to skate on her flats more than she should (check that slo mo lutz entry...she's not really on a BO edge. she's on a flat, rocks briefly to the outside then way back to the inside). She doesn't have the securely centered spins, and she's not particularly a fast powerful spinner nor skater like say NNN. She has incredible body positioning but skating is about edges and movement, not sculptures on the ice. Yeesh...I just wrote a very long post on FSW comp results on why Sasha was so NOT robbed, and I don't feel like repeating it here. I fear that many people just don't or won't get it though. In the end, the judges got it right...both for the men and the ladies. They are sending out the message...you need the complete package. Looks like Tim Goebel got it. here's hoping everyone else does too.

[SJB]

Michelle outskated the younger competitiors both technically and in presentation. She was not held up. I also noticed that Sasha does not edge all that well, and she also does a lot more two-footed skating than MK. But, the primary thing that strikes me about her presentation is that she is rather wooden--definiteley skating to the music and not with it (Sarah is much better than Sasha at this). Her choreography is also rather simple and not "important". Her movement is not yet sure--she seems a little not-in-total-control when she moves from one position to another. Sasha goes from one nice-looking pose to another, but she has not yet learned to meld her movements together into a smooth, flowing, whole, in which each individual movement and pose and the program as a whole all convey meaning and emotion. Irina has the maturity of presentation to do this, and often Maria B, and as I say Sarah is getting really good at it, but in this area there is no one yet who can touch Michelle.

[mano]

I could have sworn Michelle landed a 3toe/3toe in '95 Skate America or Skate Canada with Salome. She missed the loop though on one of them.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I knew when I posted this message that I'd get a lot of flack, so I'm not going to play the defensive part. Galadrielle, I think you midunderstood me. I don't really recall Michelle's '95 Nationals when she was competing against Nicole Bobek, so I may not have all the facts straight. MK is a very talented young lady and she's one of my favorites, but you have to admit that artisty and sophisication like MK's doesn't come overnight. When MK was 13-14, she didn't have the grace and maturity that she does now. That's just the facts. It's my belief that Michelle wouldn't have deserved to win '95 Nationals. Recall that I do not remember this well though. You're right when you say good skating is good skating. It's my opinion, that skaters do wait their turns. I do stick by belief that the Sasha's of today will have to wait their turn. If they are truely good skaters, they will stand on the top of that podium. Watching Nationals last night, there was so comparison. Maturity and most importantly experience are something you aquire with age. I didn't mean to offend anyone, but that's my opinion. People like Sasha and NNN are very talented, but I think they just don't have the experience and grace that women like Maria Butyrskaya, Irina Slutskaya, and of course MK have. I have to say that I appreciate the grace of older women. That's just me. Older women have this grace and maturity that the younger generations have just not aquired yet. That's the bottom line. The term 'jumping bean' was not very appropriate to use. Sorry about that.

[CaptCanada]

Sorry, mano, I should have been clearer...Gala was talking about nationals. I mean 96 nationals is the first nationals she did 3-3. She did land one at Skate America 95. IIRC, this is the only Salome she hit with the perfect 7 triples including 3-3 AND the two double axels. Astounding jump content, and all the spins and in betweens there too. It's not the experience that allows Michelle to win time after time. I firmly believe it's the skating. I'm so sorry that so many on FSW just don't get it...including someone who is a skate mom, for cryin' out loud. Skating encompasses more than just big jumps, pretty spins, and fast feet. It's about edges...long quiet, flowing ones, or sharp controlled fast and constantly changing ones. Have these people ever skated, or looked at a figure skating blade? There's two edges damn it! And you're supposed to skate primarily on ONE of them at a time, preferably on one foot, LOL. What impressed me last night about Michelle (aside from the obvious quiet fight and naked determination), was even tense as she was...how softly quiet her edges still are and how she continues to ooze (albeit slower) across the ice. SJB...thanks. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm going nuts, always having the minority opinion.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Just adding this: One of the qualities of Michelle's skating that makes her so unique are her edges. That's why I appreciate and love her skating. The difference between Sasha's and Michelle's skating are the edges, footwork and all that jazz that's alot of times overlooked. I'm looking through the eyes of a 14 yr. old girl and maybe that's why my opinion of the younger generation of ladies skating is in the minority.